Pics of vintages I find/see on the net.

I get your point of course but what do you want to do: force major collectors to bring their genuine priceless cars at gunpoint? Cancel the races alltogether?

Tool room copies are a necessary evil alas. What I don't like is the cottage industry that is making some of those cars E Types, Lola T70's GT40's far faster than they were back then just so some egos can be flattered....but it is all very hard to control...

 

Yes, you are right, and I have no solution either, but a point to begin with would be the publishing the manufacturing dates of the fakes in the race programmes. Of course you and I and the rest of the contributurs here know that there is hardly any 1964 Shelby Cobra Daytona on the track. But there are also many people at the grandstands who paid their entrance fee to see real iron and take it for granted what is written in the programme. It would be honest to write it’s a 2015 Superformance. The danger is that the number of people coming to watch the races would become less…

 

At Le Mans Classic there is a discreet C, for Continuation, in front of car details on the entry lists...Many purists would not come if all were clear but the general public is happy with the evocation of times gone by...this is a trend that seems irreversible alas and I don't think organisers should be blamed. There is very little they can do about it.

Banning speculation in an utopian dream world would make it less risky to bring the real cars out but that isn't going to happen is it?

 

Good point. In the process they don't sound original anymore either. High revving, screaming engines that never were like that originally (think SWBs and Porsche 911s).

I wonder though: what about the more modern race cars like the Group C and Endurance Racing Legends? I assume they are mostly still the real deal.

 

Hmm, if the "Breadvan" has ceased to serve the only purpose it was built for, maybe it should be restored back into original configuration.

 

Ridiculous and preposterous.

Firstly on a technical standpoint surely you know that the chassis was extensively modified. When I researched and wrote the Breadvan book (Rebel rebel Breadvan 2010) with Keith Bluemel I interviewed the man in Modena who had modified the chassis in period, Umberto Marchesi, and he explained this at length.

Secondly on a historical standpoint it is one the most important Ferraris of all time, the only one built in opposition to Ferrari after he banned the young heir Count Volpi -and cancelled his order for a pair of GTO's- for retaining some of his staff after he fired them in the palace revolution. It is also the most famous Ferrari known for its nickname (very few in comparison know the Uovo or any others that might have a nickname). When Forghieri kindly wrote the book's foreword he mentioned unexpectedly that Enzo had asked him to have a very close look at it (at Brands Hatch). Typical Ferrari he pretended to ignore the car but wanted to know all about it, same with the highly modified Sunoco 512M a few days later.

Consider that Ferrari created a whole new Classiche status FOR THE BREADVAN; modified in period hence Ferrari after ignoring the car for years -Volpi in fact states he believes the car and his other entry were sabotaged in the run up to LM 62-have completely accepted it as part of their history and the car has been displayed at the museum in Fiorano several times.

Lastly it is a megastar of Ferrari history when I was lucky enough to race it (very respectfully) at Le Mans Classic with the Werners in 2008 it was the first time it was back on the Sarthe circuit since 1962, it was the star of the weekend, on the huge banners and a very old man said to mee "I zee eet race new!" When I drove back into the paddock after practice Rene Arnoux was walking by and he gave the car a big smile and thumbs up.

I call it the Croisant charriot and think it deserves a film about its history!

 

Absolutely, though engineers can never stop developing do they?

Expect the Group C and ERL legends to take an ever growing role at LMC and other historic events. Time stops for no one....

 

If the copies are substantially like the the cars they imitate, I don’t mind at all. I am just glad to see them race as they convey 90-99% of the experience. Better than not seeing them, and worth the money spent. In fact, it’s great because the originals race at one point in time, and that can never totally be repeated, replicas or otherwise.

Perry

 

Is this Avorio or Giallo Dino? If it is Avorio (there is no 275 in GIallo Dino of course), is it the original color?

 

07061 Avorio.
Converted to 'NART Spyder' and then had a long nose front clip added to make it 'more NART-y'.
All nonsense.
Thankfully a later owner had Bacchelli & Villa restore it back to original short nose berlinetta configuration, winning Best Restoration award at Zoute 2022.

 

https://www.secure.instagram.com/p/CiGOED8oopL/

 

Okay, I am with you. But if people really don’t mind if they see replicas or not why not give frankly the real build date of the fakes/replicas/tributes/continuations or whatever silly euphemisms are created? I know I am not the only one under the impression of getting fooled when someone declares his car was built in the sixties while not a single bolt of it existed before the new century. Organizers can check this easily by scrutineering and have a look at the VINs. If they are false this would be definitely fraud.

 

I do understand the logic of racing replica copies of extremely valuable old cars. And at least 95% of the public doesn't care.

However, for the 5% that do care, it is only decent to provide (in advance!) an accurate description of the cars. A discreet "R" or "C" might already do the trick, the 5% cognoscenti will know and will not feel cheated.

 

If you look at the LMC entry list below you will see that is there is a (C) for Continuation (same word in French and English) next to the two 250LM's and next to the Cadillac Le Monstre. I had a great chat with its maker and driver, an older Brit who explained that Miles Collier and the eponymous museum in Naples Florida could not have been more helpful.

Of course there is no (C) next to the Breadvan but I guess some owners are more or less coy about it. Vast debate...and by the way -not saying this to you in particular but to all who have written here- please kindly note that I am not related to LMC in any way, not hired to be its moral defender and don't have more time for this topic. All the best.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/64to4wgyokcof6x/lmc-grids-entry.pdf?dl=0

 

Applause for this gentleman. More of them plese !

 

This makes things even more complicated: where some copy / replica / continuation/ ..... cars were marked as (C) in the 2023 LMC entry list, it seems others were not. This causes even more confusion. For example, for some time I really believed that the real Breadvan had crashed in the 2022 LMC because the car was not marked as (C)....

For me it seems not that difficult: classic event organizers can demand that entries are represented correctly and inform the general public accordingly (and refuse entry when the car is misrepresented).
When I visit the Louvre I appreciate to be warned beforehand that the real Mona Lisa is not on exhibition (due to restauration work, or deemed too expensive) but that a good copy is shown instead.

 

Photograph of a Ferrari racecar competing in the 1969 Canadian American Challenge Cup at Texas International Speedway in College Station, Texas. - UNT Libraries

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712 Can Am 0866 with Chris Amon.

 

612, that is not the 712P.

 

The timeline I read is that (obviously, born as a [312P(‘B’)], 0866 was converted to a 612 and then later a 712- but by this time in 1969, had become a 712P.

 

Sorry there was only one 712P cf my extensive cover article on it with new material and driver interviews in Cavallino issue #102, December 1997.

Brings back memories of great interviews and then having to go to several locations around la Jolla, San Diego with the car on a flatbed before being able to do the photoshoot, that was quite an ordeal, though I can laugh about it now. Symbolic Motorcars was always very helpful and happy for the publicity back in those days.

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FWIW: None of the Pur Sang Bugattis in the LMC programme were marked as "C"...

m.h.

 

Instead of nit picking a fabulous event, now the biggest in the world by far, I recommend watching some videos, it is good for your soul.

https://www.lemansclassic.com/en/live/

 

I agree, but am I watching the original 1969 "Italian job" or the 2003 remake?