Pierre Bardinon collection

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by F328GTS/GTB, Aug 18, 2007.

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  1. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    According this information the collection still sleeping on garage.

    Finally is not a problem of taxes, gouvernement etc...it s just a family heritage dispute.
    It Seems Patrick tooks his part before his brother and sister.
     
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  2. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    No.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  3. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Marcel,
    You're quoted in court as a witness?
     
  4. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Rookie
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    thank you marcel for the link
    when I translate ( don´t know the french language :( ) I wonder a little: the "carte grise" is in the name of the son how sold the car. so he has been then the owner. as I know the carte grise is a document like in germany the former "fahrzeugbrief" ( now it says zulassungsbescheinigung teil 2 ) or in switzerland the "fahrzeugausweis" ?

    sad to read what happens after some died :( :( and left a lot of values without caring about what would happen when he will be dead
     
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  5. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    11 hours of Hearing it s more than a marathon.
    The procecutor who no longer resists, and who falls...

    I would have mimicked the fainting to go smoke a cigarette!

    It is worthy of a good Hollywood polar.

    Nevertheless, Pierre Bardinon would not have accepted a situation as grotesque as it was disastrous.
     
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  7. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
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    The other brother and sister claim their father used to put their names on "carte grises" without really thinking about it, so for them, the GTO was part of their heritage, and their brother Patrick shouldn't have sold it for his own personal benefit.

    Very sad story indeed. Many families have been torn apart for much less than 38 million Euros. This should remind those of us who have enough money to create issues once they're gone how important it is to make it clear who gets what.
     
  8. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    "Carte grise" or "Grey card" is official documentation and registry for a car with his owner.
    All fines, taxes will be paid by the owner indicated in this document.
     
  9. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Sometimes money it s a real nightmare, family in the same bag.

    rule of life : born, we are brothers, during adolescence we are friends, the rest of life, we know nobody.
     
  10. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 Veteran
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    Even well written wills get contested sometimes. That happened when my grandfather died, and one of my aunts contested it. Everything turned out fine, and justice was served, but the lawyers made a lot of ill-obtained money.
     
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  11. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Hope the writer have seen cars in the garage...as he said: not so far away here, a wonderful collection is parked in the property.

    In other way, prepares your helmet, riot guns etc....
     
  12. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Generally: Carte grise is the French title. However, AFAIK it does not automatically mean that the person listed in the carte grise is legally also the owner. It can be just the "holder".
    In Switzerland we have a very similar legal situation with the "Fahrzeugausweis" (they grey form). The name listed may not legally be the owner. In Switzerland, if a car is owned by a bank or leasing company, there's an additional code (remark) in the grey form (Swiss title). This to avoid a sale without telling the truth about the real legal owner.
    I do not know if such a code may also exist in France.
    In the Bardinon case the situation looks to be different. For the (now ex Bardinon) Series II 250 GTO #5573 GT it seems that the old carte grise was issued decades ago in the name of the son, who apparently "was given" (gifted?) the car by father Pierre Bardinon, after the son's massive accident at an early age.
    Much later, this may then have led this son to believe that he is the rightful individual and private and sole owner and therefore entitled to privately sell the car without asking brothers and sisters.
    Once both Pierre Bardinon (17 August 2012) and widow Yanne Bardinon (11 December 2013) passed away the French Government asked for massive inheritance taxes and at least two of the three kids seem to have claimed "having no money for payment of such taxes".
    And all this while the third kid got a huge amount for the sale of the S2 GTO (11 April 2014).
    Looks like a fight between the three kids, and who really has to pay the inheritance taxes and how much. Needless to say, it's too bad they cannot sort out their disagreements.
    The only people that make money here are the lawyers. I guess this is gonna take several years more in court.
    Disclaimer: This is just my personal interpretation and may not be absolutely accurate or correct.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  14. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Marcel,

    During the 2005 Sarkozy makes a law concerning Donation. 0€ taxes for gouvernement. You must to pay only the notary for registering this information.


    As for the notary,
    In the event of death, the properties that are under the name of the deceased must be registered in your name. In this case, and C is ligitime, the new owner will have to pay a percentage on the value of the property to the government.

    Mr Bardinon did correctly the things, now children must to think about it.
     
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  15. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    Reminds me of the Jan Bosch collection situation.
     
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  16. bertdeboer340

    bertdeboer340 Formula 3

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  17. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Rookie
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    #316 turbo-joe, Jun 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
    I also don´t know how it works in france. in germany the former fahrzeugbrief, now zulassungsbescheinigung part 2 is the document for the car. this one who has this document has the legal right to this car, but not have to be the owner.

    so the name in the grey card is the owner and the tax to be payed to the french government is counted only form this what pierre bardinon has at his own just before he passed away. and this GTO has been registered to his son long time before. so it is really sad that except of the lawyers none will have profit. :(
     
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  18. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Why does the state need to get anymore money from an estate which by definition is what remains after ones spends ones life paying taxes. Disgusting.
     
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  19. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Rookie
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    because it is the state and those who are voted from us not handling with their own money, it is our money ( taxes ) and so they don´t care much about this money - only to spend and to get more and more.:(
    if I would handle same I have been bankrupt/insolvent already
     
  20. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    Yeah I don't like the estate tax. I think the best way to avoid this, at least in the US, is to create a 501(c)3 non-profit museum and put your cars there on display. Not only could you keep the collection together after you pass, it would allow many subsequent generations to visit and enjoy seeing what otherwise would be either locked away privately or broken apart and taxed. If I had the means to put together such an incredible collection, I would do that. It would also better ensure funding to maintain the cars and prevent family members trying to take some for their own interests ($$$)...
     
  21. BMWairhead

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    In the late 80s and early 90s, many were worried that the big cars would go into non-profits rarely to be seen and never to be driven or sold again. The bubble burst and all sorts of cars went all sorts of directions.
     
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  22. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    Well I'm glad that didn't happen and I would hope the 503(c) I suggested is used what it was intended for. My two favorite museums are 503(c) organizations. The Simeone Museum and I caught them on a demo day thankfully since they actually drive their cars in front of others. The other is the Barber Motorsports Museum. Very nice Lotus and Ferraris in there plus 1,000+ motorcycles. Pretty much all the motorcycles run and they have put them out on their private race track for events.

    Hopefully someday there is someone wealthy enough to build a museum and a racetrack like the Barber museum, but fill it with historic cars and do the same thing. I doubt I will ever be in a position like that, but that's definitely what I would do and require the cars get run publicly.
     
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    I doubt your children will agree with you.
     
  24. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

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    Few comments from legal side:

    1.in France like some other countries, like UK, registration documents in your name is not a proof of ownership. But still a strong assumption. Best if you want to be on safe side and for any reason you need to register in a different name, is to have a notarized document confirming ownership and registration.

    2. Nothing prevents people from making donations to one or several but not all their children during their life. Tax issue on this is specific. But still donation made during your life have to be re incorporated into your overall total assets when the deceased assets are liquidated. So unlike some other jurisdiction ( like US) you cannot give something to one child and nothing to others, ( whether they have accidents, or you prefer the color of their eyes etc) or everything to charity. You have to give in similar proportion to each children, incidentally legitimate or illegitimate ones! ( of course situation is more complicated when you have assets in several countries and residency/ citizenship in others see Halliday family issue). Valuation can be an issue because of timing of donation and pricing then, but the principle is clear.

    3.i think it would be very difficult in France to donate your collection to a foundation and deprive your children of any inheritance. What you can do though is to give a part to a museum and donate other things to the children like cash, properties and other assets. By doing so and striking a deal with IRS you can cover your tax liability. This is how the Picasso family ( the legitimate and illegitimate children - no moral judgement here, talking of those born in or out of wedlock for legal reasons) solved their inheritance tax. Part went to a newly created museum and covered inheritance taxes and the rest was kept by the family.

    4. So in this case it is pretty simple, they have to re integrate everything into the estate and then split everything between them and then cover all the inheritance tax and split between them what is left. Of course we can figure out that in this case there are 2 different issues intertwined, the dispute between family members and the looming dispute with the tax office on real value of the deceased estate. But litigating in spite of the illness of the judge is a waste of time, it will end up as mentioned because those are the rules. Of course the issue is enforcement because one of the child sold the car and kept the money so the others and tax office have to collect! So this is a nice delaying tactic!

    Final disclaimer : I know personally one of the children, but never discussed the topic, so this is my personal view!!
     
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  25. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    I don't expect to get a single cent from either of my parents when they pass and I'd expect the same of my kids and grandkids. Hopefully they don't disagree with that logic and try to earn what they have. My parents did help me a little for undergraduate education (not much as scholarship covered basically everything), but they made it clear early in my life they wouldn't after that.
     

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