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Pierre Bardinon collection

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by F328GTS/GTB, Aug 18, 2007.

  1. JackCongo

    JackCongo Formula Junior
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    What a saga!
     
  2. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    I guess it will continue a couple more years.
    Good for the lawyers.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  3. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    romano schwabel
    and they earn so much only for interpretating the law each to other ways - terrible :(
     
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  4. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    Most of the cars were bought in rough shape, cheaply, and were painstakingly restored -- the 1964 GTO was purchased in 1978 for just $700, or about $2,800 in today's money. Pierre spent another $1,500 fixing it up.

    What nonsense!
     
  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    those low prices may be a little true, but nevertheless most important for the tax declaration/inheritance tax
    but with those low amounts the lawyers not earn much money
    this is all more then mystique

    I think pierre bardinon will turn around in his grave when he would know what is going on
     
  6. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    Already done 3x, I think.
     
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  7. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Does Patrick have any sort of proof the car was gifted to him other than what he said? It very well might have been the case but at that price range, I can see how the other 2 siblings are willing to argue.
     
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  8. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    I assumed in reading that those were either typos or reporter's transcription errors and the real numbers were 70,000 (see also 3757 GT in 1978) and 150,000 restoration (although admitted that would be a TON of money back then).
     
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  9. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    That makes sense, thanks.
     
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  10. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Particularly (if it was $150,000) if the restoration costs occurred significantly post-1978.
     
  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Who owns the car (250 GTO 5573GT) now?
     
  12. Terra

    Terra Formula 3
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    Apparently Patrick Bardinon's final remaining judicial appellate remedy is in the Cour de Cassation. Perhaps a French Fchatter can chime in regarding how many years hence it will take for the Cour de Cassation to hear the case.
     
  13. JackCongo

    JackCongo Formula Junior
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    If Patrick décides to do so, the case has to be brought to the cour de cassation within a 2month delay from now.

    Since 2018 , things have changed due to too many recourses to cassation and cases have to go through a sort of validation process. If accepted, the average processing delay is 15 months.
     
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  14. Terra

    Terra Formula 3
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    Approximately how long will the "validation/(vetting) process" take in order to decide whether the Cour de Cassation will even hear the case?
     
  15. JackCongo

    JackCongo Formula Junior
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    It normally takes around 3 months to know if the case can be processed or not...
     
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  16. Terra

    Terra Formula 3
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    And assuming it gets heard by the Cour de Cassation, typically how long does it take the Court to render their written decision/verdict once they've finished hearing the presentation from the attorneys for all the parties? Like 4-6 weeks hence?
     
  17. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    Who knows...and they might be on strike:)

    Bonsoir from France, go have a nice dinner with some nice wine and time will tell:)
     
  18. JackCongo

    JackCongo Formula Junior
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    If it gets heard by the cour de cassation, it should take about 15 months to get to a final conclusion... if no strike! Remember we’re in France !
     
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  19. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    La "grande" nation………..

    Marcel Massini
     
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  20. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    A funny name, in so far as it is never heard here. "Le Grand siècle", yes (= the XVIIth century); even today. La "grande nation", never...

    "Le terme « Grande Nation » est à l’origine de nombreux malentendus. Souvent employé dans la presse allemande et autrichienne pour parler de la France, cette expression trouverait en fait son origine chez les poètes romantiques allemands admirateurs de la Révolution. Côté français, elle est inusitée."

    "The expression "Grande Nation" has given birth to many misunderstandings. Often used in the German and Austrian press to designate France, this expression could have originated with the german romantic poets who admirated the French Revolution. In France, it is not used"

    Back to the topic: yes, two years should be the approximate delay, if the "pourvoi" is accepted. The French Cour de Cassation is not a third level of justice to which anybody could appeal: it can only consider re-examining an appeal if a material rule of the Law has been violated in appeal; if it should consider that the appeal is correctly motivated and does not violate a material rule of the Law, the "pourvoi" will be rejected outright, and the appeal confirmed.

    Also, keep in mind that the cost to Pierre Bardinon is more than the selling price of the car: he has to pay interests and damages too, that is a total of "more than 50 millions euros".

    https://www.lemondedudroit.fr/deals/67931-succession-bardinon-ferrari-250-gto-cms-francis-lefebvre-avocats-obtient-decision-repare-prejudice-succession.html

    Rgds
     
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  21. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

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    Another issue with the Cassation recourse is that, unlike the appeal, it does not suspend the judgment.
    So my understanding is that the money has to be brought now (however, Patrick Bardinon is still entitled to his share of the 50 millions).
     
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  22. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    He sold the car for 40 millions euros (= 46 millions U$). Now he has to put back these 40 millions into the succession, plus interests; then, damages to said succession and perhaps even to brother and sister, etc...according to what I read;
    It means he had more or less to find 12 millions out of his Pocket (= 52 minus 40). Let's say that, through the succession (which is probably not yet solved) he could potentially recover a third of about a potential 45, which means 15. From these 15 you deduce the 12 he has to find, and then the fees of his lawyers, etc...taken the tax administration claims on these amounts, it means he would be left with basically nothing...and the car is gone.

    Rgds
     
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  23. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    not just the car but generations of family relationships.
     
  24. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Yes, of course; it is a sad story. But is seems that heirs (= the family) couldn't agree on what to do with the cars, as they do not have the same attachment to these than their father.
    I'm speculating here, because I don't have any knowledge in the matter, but a succession on such a collection should be prepared very much in advance. If not, then the heirs are obliged to sell some cars to pay the heavy inheritance taxes ("Droits de succession", in French: succession rights).
    Again, I have no knowledge in that particular case, but it must be noted that in 1977 the State agreed to classify the whole Schlumpf collection: not each car, but the whole collection in one single swoop as "significant".
    Consequences were that it was impossible to sell any one car out of it (except later, they made a few exceptions in the case of the widow of one of the brothers, essentially for matters pertaining to succession rights again) but there were no "succession rights" to pay.
    I wonder if such a possibility was explored with the french tax administration for the Bardinon collection, excipying from the Schlumpf precedent? Perhaps they would have been open to considering registering the whole collection as "significant" and lowered the inheritance taxes? But of course, it would have necessited that the heirs all agree on that...and on lossing some potential revenue from the sale of the cars. I understand it was not the case as they didn't have the same interest in the cars than their father had.

    Rgds
     
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