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Piper P4 East London (SA)1969

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 246tasman, Jun 16, 2009.

  1. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    #1 246tasman, Jun 16, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2009
    I just read in the Paul Hawkins biography that David Piper's ''P4'' 'was reduced to a nothing but a charred wreck' at the East London 500km on 4.1.69.

    I assume this was #0854, and the author exaggerates as it ran again at the Norisring in June 69.

    Does anyone have more details of the fire & damage, or could it have been 2 different cars? You never can tell with Pipes....
     
  2. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    This has been gone over many times. At the time 0854 was wearing a cut down fiberglass body which is what burned up. Original alloy body was not mounted at the time. Piper repaired the car and it was racing again soon.
     
  3. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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  4. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

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    #4 Miltonian, Jun 16, 2009
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    I just found these two pictures (credits to John Duncan) in Autoweek, January 25, 1969. The first shot was taken at the Kyalami 9-hour race on November 9, 1968, the #3 Ferrari being the Piper/Attwood entry, and the #4 car being the Hawkins/Love car. The second picture was taken two weeks later, at the Cape Town 3-hour race.

    Was Piper's car modified/rebodied between these two races? Or are these different cars?
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  5. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 Napolis, Jun 16, 2009
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    As David explained it to me when I saw him a few weeks ago in Modena 0854 collected a Steward in the pits cracking the nose and windshield (fiberglass nose) so he cut 0854 into a "Can Am" Spyder.
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  6. Sire Bruno de Losckley

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    second pic:

    23/11/1968-Killarney 3h du cap:
    350 Canam/Hawkins-0858 and 412 P/Piper-0854
     
  7. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    Does history or David recount what happened to the Steward ?
     
  8. tomgt

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  9. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    This is a great example of how flimsy these cars were.. Look at the windshield frame after the encounter with the steward. I realize that this could well have been a horrific thing, but the fact that the windshield frame is really bent makes you wonder what would have happened in a rollover or if one hit something more substantial than a person. And yes the P4 frame has a "roll hoop" behind the driver, but the light construction of the car is evident in these photographs.
     
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    In the current issue of Classic & Sports Car David praises 0854 as well as saying: "..., but sadly it eventually burnt out at East London. Later, Chris Cord rebuilt it in America as a Spider and drove it around Los Angeles. What a street car!"
     
  11. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    are there more photos of the "charred wreck" at East London?
     
  12. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran
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    I may have some, let me have a look.
     
  13. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    I don't have any. Hopefully Jacques or someone else will have some to post.
     
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #14 miurasv, Mar 3, 2016
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    Mind boggling imo which implies that the car met its end at East London as far as David was concerned. However, records show that David himself raced the car twice more after the car was "burnt out" which then, if not destroyed, must have suffered substantial damage, at least, corroborating and concurring with the statement in Paul Hawkins biography as in Will Tomkins' post 1 in this thread.
     
  15. nerofer

    nerofer F1 Veteran

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    Shocking! So the great man memory might be faillible after all? And to remember that you made is infaillibility the basis for some other statements...

    Rgds
     
  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Please get your facts straight. David Piper's memory was not the one that was questioned by Mr Glickenhaus. I made nothing of anyone's infallibility as the basis for some other statements.
     
  17. francisn

    francisn Formula 3
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    In the 2007 book "Pipes" there are various pictures of the Piper P3/4 racing in the Springbok Series in 68/69. In the Kyalami 9 hour the car is a Berlinetta. In the Cape 3 hour race at Killarney 2 weeks later the car is roofless and in the Natal 3 hour (one month later" and the East London race (10 days later) the car is described as ( and shown as) a P3/4 Spyder.

    There are also 2 pics of the burned out car and Piper describes how it happened. In trying to overtake Piper, the knock on spinners on Paul Hawkins P4 tore into Piper's fuel tank , ripping the sill open. Piper then spun off on his own petrol and trying to get back to the pits to find out the problem the car caught fire. The fire engine which was only 50 yards in front of him went the length of the circuit to get to him by which time the car was pretty much burned out. They washed it with diesel top preserve it before shipping it back to the UK where it was rebuilt completely, using little more than the engine, gearbox and chassis.

    Certainly from the pics in the book the car looks pretty substantially burned out.

    I'll scan and post the images later.
     
  18. francisn

    francisn Formula 3
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    In the "Pipes" book there is a photo of Piper's co-driver Richard Attwood inspecting the car in the pits after running over a Stewards grappling iron (used for towing cars).Maybe that also cracked the nose and windscreen. Attwood subsequently collided with an Alfa T33 in the rain with the resulting damage eventually forcing them to retire. I suggest it is probably that damage which is shown as I doubt a steward could have caused that much damage and survived, and there is no mention of such a serious incident in the race report.

    By taking off the roof and fitting a canam windscreen the car lost 100lbs and was "a lot cooler".
     
  19. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    Its a real shame that Jim no longer posts here to give his input.

    Given the 'throw mud at another Napolis car' undertone that this thread is now beginning to have and given the poster/stalker trying to shake that particular jar of bees, it does not surprise me he avoids the forum.
     
  20. francisn

    francisn Formula 3
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    What undertone?
     
  21. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Thanks for sharing, Francis. I would love to know the full and true history of the Ferrari Prototypes, particularly the 330 P3, 412P and 330 P4s, which are the most beautiful of cars. Looking forward to seeing the pics.
     
  22. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

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    I can't find Dino Martin Jr.'s name on the site that lists the SN of cars with owners (B_____cc.com) but I'm interested in knowing if this is the same car I saw Dean Martin Jr. driving down Sunset Blvd.in 1969, yellow in color open roof but I get confused with calling that a spyder compared to a full CanAm style open spyder.
    Anyhow excised from that listing of owners on that site are these names (with NOTES added by me):

    H.16 p58
    69 - Chris Cord, Paoli, PA, USA, repaired car into spyder configuration, for very exotic and fast street use in the West Coast


    (NOTE from poster: I thought Cord lived in Calif. or Nevada, son or grandson of E.L. Cord, founder of the Cord Motor Co.)

    70 - given to Kirk F. White for sale, sold it to Carl Bross for $9,976.70

    NOTE from poster: I used to see Carl Bross advertising his diamond rings by showing Ferraris, I never could get the connection, I wonder if the IRS bought the idea of them being business expenses with this dubious tie-in


    71 - Carl Bross, Detroit, MI, USA, died and his whole collection, including 0854, went to Anthony Bamford
    71 - Anthony Bamford, UK
    83/oct - Harley Cluxton, Scottsdale, AZ, USA - Grand Touring Cars; cosmetic restoration

    As far as the magazine reporting it was "destroyed" the more I research old cars the more I find out one man's definition of "destroyed" is another man's definition of "rebuildable" like the Calif. Spyder that Richard Teague, car designer owned, that was burned down to the frame and a new body made. I am sure most people that saw the pictures thought it "destroyed" but it's a running, driving car today
     
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Dino Martin Jr's 412P was 0850.
     
  24. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    Can anyone tell me how to find a copy of Pipes the book Thanks tonga's crew
     
  25. francisn

    francisn Formula 3
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    Obviously ebay. If you can't find one let me know. One of my local Thames Valley FOC GB members won one in a raffle when I ran an evening with David Piper some 10 years ago. I'm not sure that he was that interested in having it and might be prepared to sell it. It is autographed by the author and Pipes.

    I can ask if you want.
     

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