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488 Pista Spider outlook

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Scraggy, Jun 13, 2019.

  1. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    Thanks so much for the very helpful contributions which for an enthusiasts forum are actually quite negative.

    Would do Ferrari the world of good to read these forums properly. I had always hoped they would go down the Patek route but fear that the public stock issue is taking them in another direction.

    Keep the feedback coming please.
     
  2. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Formula 3

    Jun 10, 2016
    2,162
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    Scraggy there are negatives and positives in any high end car purchase and everyone has their own processes of weighing up. The allure with Ferrari is always there but the money and risk factor tend to kick in at one point whether we like it or not or, choose to admit being openly concerned. It's definitely a different game today..
     
  3. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

    May 29, 2019
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    Some very good points here.

    I think there's a few very good reasons why the Scud was hit so hard. The normal F430 was in its own right not Ferraris best seller, and that affects the Scud as its what potential buyers will compare it to.
    Add to that the fact that the 458 was such an important game changer. Gone was the F1 gearbox and clutch wear issues. Gone was a design that in the eyes of some were a bit of a mess. Build quality was dramatically improved, and so were the performance numbers. The 458 quickly became a very loved car, a car that in mechanical terms made the F430 feel extremely dated and like too much of a hassle. This love for the Italia and Spider also rubbed off on the 458S and 458SA. But as we see, the market for these cars are growing increasingly more soft. Pricing here in Europe is as always different from the US, as we are devoid of the games US dealers and FNA play. I don't consider any of them true investments. Sure in 40 years time when fewer good ones are left and they gain historic value, sure, a 458SA and maybe a 458S may hold some kind of value. But in the short run, i.e 15 years or less, I can't see any of them being anything but an expense. Even if the car holds its value maybe even increases ever so slightly, inflation and general ownership expenses will quickly absorb all of that.
    It will be no different with the Pistas. I suspect that the Spider will retain better value, as it has lower production numbers. But at the same time, I will never consider them rare. A rare car is a 250GTO, 599 manual or a manual 1970 Trans Am Ram Air IV. There has been produced well over 2000 Speciales and god knows how many extra SA cars. Generally the Pistas seem to get a lot more love than the F8, and it also seems like many people are not entirely sure where to place the F8. Is it a 488 successor, or is it placed somewhere between the 488 and Pista. From where I sit, it looks like many are happy to trade in their 488s for P/PS allocations, but few seem interested in the F8.
    Lastly, we don't know what the SF90 will do to the Pistas and F8. Will it have the same effect on P/PS prices as the 458 had on the Scud? I'm not so sure. It's priced much higher than the price gap was between the Scud and the 458. And the 458 came at a time where Ferrari needed the change. Yes we lost the gate, but we gained a far far better drive train and vastly improved performance. Will the SF90 really be as big a leap? Sure it has 1000PS vs. 720PS, but it's also heavy. Could a Pista with an 800+ hp Novitec ECU outperform the chubby SF90? I know some speculate that this will be the case.
    So taking all of this into consideration, is the Pista Spider a safe thing? Yes. It's safe to say that over time it will be an expense. I also think it's safe to assume it will hold its value better than both the regular Pista and the F8 Spider. But what I can say with 100% certainty is that the best way to get your investment back from a Pista Spider is to use it and enjoy it. Such a great car is worthless as a garage queen imo.
     
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  4. nads

    nads Formula Junior
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    Unfortunately with the release of so many models in a relatively short period of time Ferrari are slowly stripping away, for many, the enjoyment factor of a new purchase and sadly once the enjoyment starts to erode eventually so does the will to buy.
     
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  5. C50

    C50 Formula Junior
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    Worthless as a garage queen
    That’s a great way to conceptualize a car, much more grounded in reality than prior where some people seemed to think they were made of sugar with a 24k gold engine
    Nope. Lovely to look, poor investments and a kick to drive.
     
    Il Co-Pilota likes this.
  6. NeilF8888

    NeilF8888 Formula Junior

    Feb 10, 2005
    737
    Miami Beach
    So with that theory why does a TDF keep its value (I know it’s down from its all time high but still a huge amount over MSRP) when an 812 depreciates?
    The Pista Spider will be very close in number manufactured as the TDF.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  7. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2017
    2,365
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    The TdF is (officially) numbered, and it was initially underpriced by Ferrari (considering what customers were ready to pay). I believe there is also more actual difference between a TdF and a 812 than between a Pista and an F8 - the TdF definition is clearly rawer while the Pista is more about cosmetic carbon.
    And the Pista or Pista spiders are not numbered, and their pricing has been more carefully studied by Ferrari - so that the potential gap with what people are ready to pay has been reduced if not eliminated.
     
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  8. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
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    May 2, 2005
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    I find the whole discussion very interesting and frankly amusing. Here we are debating how much money we will lose going forward instead of realising how much fun these cars are. Take one out and give it a good thrashing and then come straight back and post on this thread. I am sure most responses would be different.

    If you really want to lose money, buy high-end woman (or mens) fashion of jewellery. Their intrinsic value is down to the value of the raw materials - at best
     
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  9. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    Or get divorced !
     
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  10. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    V12 has always been the more prestigious format for LE.
     
  11. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    You know on the how fun part this is (above) that aspect that has unsettled me. Am noticing the traffic, speeding tickets, drama, weight, size, anxiety re vandalism, insurance, depreciation etc a lot more.

    Been recently running round in a 981 Spider with carbon seats, ceramic brakes, short shift manual, 911S engine and its a hoot, far more fun and engaging than my 812. No worries re putting mileage on.

    That is perhaps why I am evaluating more and less heart is involved. Plus the fact that F has increased the overall cost drastically to annual buyers like me.
     
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  12. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    My 458SA was £305 on the road, similar spec Pista Spider will be £340, 5 years later so no reprising actually.

    It’s the new models like Monza and 90 that are re-positioned.
     
  13. Marc Rachbind

    Marc Rachbind Rookie

    Aug 5, 2018
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    I'm in agreement with Scraggy. Most cars are not a good investment. I bought a 488 Spider, added $15000 in carbon and other upgrades, and now I'm loving it. If I want $ appreciation, I'll invest in long term bonds etc. I've only owned my car 11 months, and I've already driven over 4000 miles. (mostly track and highway) YOLO! for sure! If you guys are worried or even thinking about your toys appreciating, I suggest you don't buy any cay under a million bucks, but rather buy real estate, and drive a fiat.
     
  14. NeilF8888

    NeilF8888 Formula Junior

    Feb 10, 2005
    737
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    My Aperta was $470k, I expect my Pista Spider to be around $520. About a 10% increase in 5 years. I think that’s not too bad.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  15. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

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    #40 Il Co-Pilota, Jun 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
    I don't get the whole investment thing with these cars. I can see why some flip them quickly, especially in the US - not agreeing with it. But I can understand why people are tempted to sell their TdF 6-8 months on at three times the value. However, prices soften and inflation sets in. Personally, I think Ferrari should blackball flippers of limited VS cars, and also have some kind of expectation of what minimum use the first 5 years should be. These cars are meant to be driven, so I think allocations should go to high mileage clients first and foremost.
    I'm of the understanding that this is actually starting to happen, and that it was sort of the case with the TdF. From what I understand, this is one of the changes The Sweater implemented after LdM left.
    Not sure Ferrari has much interest in the next batch of VS cars becoming "investment objects" for collectors that hardly use their cars. This is yet another reason why I think it's impossible to speculate in these cars, but also a reason why productiin numbers are rising.
    The competition is more fierce than ever, and people will simply go elsewhere if they are turned down. This was not an issue 20 years ago, as Ferrari had this market with the most sought after limited productionexotics pretty much to themselves. However, McLaren, Porsche and Lamborghini has put an end to that monopoly, and customers seeking "special" experiences can pick and choose. I've heard some interesting stories of collectors/owners of low milage 599 GTO's, 599SA's and other high end V12 models that were not offered TdF allocations, but fairly new clients with lots of milage on their F12 along with a good participation history in Corse Pilota etc. and Challenge drivers did get allocations.
    Again, I think this is worth taking into consideration when people are speculating in these cars.
    Why not put the miles on these cars? It's not like they are impossible to come by. Lots of 458 VS cars for sale, and the high priced ones are not moving. Plenty of F12 and 812 cars as well, andwithin a year or so, we will also see the Pistas enter the used market - and there will be plenty of cars to choose from. Oeople may think their car is worth a lot, but it will rarely sell if it's priced like the dash was lined with diamonds. It's no different than when the 488 debuted and the 458 owners all talked about how their cars would retain or increase in value. But over 25000 458's were made. They are not rare or hard to come by. They are depreciating like everything else. What will be the next big thing? Who knows. But from an investment standpoint the 308 and 250/275/330 2+2:eek:wners can be called the winners.
    These new VS and LE cars are for the most part, produced in too great a number, or simply too young.
    So we end up back at the true value of these cars. Drive them and have fun with them. As has been stated litterally thousands of times before on these boards, nobody lies on their death bed and wish they had driven their Ferrari less. If an investment is what you want, buy bonds or real estate, or perhaps venture into the "real" classic car market which can be as treacherous as the high risk short term stock market.
    If you want a thrill ride, get the modern Ferrari of your dreams and make it a point to go through two sets of rear tyres for each set of fronts. Who cares what the price of a Pista, 812 or Lusso will be in three yes etc. If that's a major concern, I'm not sure this is the game to play.
     
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  16. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
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    Just hoped in the 981 Cayman GT4 - and could not stop smiling. Frankly the most fun with the least cost and just sublime balance, response and enjoyment. Doesn't mean we don't want a Pista or Pista Spyder etc.

    DON'T let the "fun destroyers" get you down as it means the b*stards win :)
     
  17. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    Nice shout out to the humble 308 ;)
     
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  18. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

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    Haha, not humble. Iconic.

    I think the Euro spec 308 GTB/GTS is the most beautiful Ferrari that has been made so far. And Glasurit FER300/6 is the best incarnation of Rosso Corsa that has ever been.

    Few cars look as good and iconic as a Rosso Corsa or Blu Chiaro 308 :)
     
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  19. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Formula 3

    Jun 10, 2016
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    Wanting Pista and spider is one thing bro but getting them dirty must be part of your ownership equation from now on....so I'm afraid to say gt4 must stay home next time dude. That leaves Perf, 812 or the Speciale...which will all need to be removed from the cotton wool.:)
     
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  20. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

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    That should be a bargain UK price - for that money in France you get a Pista (with no exuberant options), not a Pista spider.
     
  21. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    Socialist state
     
  22. GrigioFox

    GrigioFox Rookie

    Dec 13, 2016
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    I am another who smiles at the idea of a Ferrari being a Garage Queen investment!

    I have been lucky enough to drive over 250,000 miles in Ferraris over nearly four decades using V8s and V12s as everyday cars. I have never made a profit but I have enjoyed every single time I start the engine and every single mile on the road. The Italians call this Passione!

    If I had to make the depreciation argument, it wouldn't be very difficult to compare the cost of my Ferrari experience against similarly used BMW, Mercedes etc etc.

    And anyway, you cannot put a price on the pleasure, satisfaction and fun of Ferrari ownership.

    I can't wait to start putting some miles on my Pista Spider - and someone will get a bargain when they buy it with over 10,000 miles on it and five more years of Ferrari servicing included!!
     
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