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Plastic fragments in oil, what are they from?

Discussion in '348/355' started by want2BSchumi, Dec 27, 2012.

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  1. want2BSchumi

    want2BSchumi Karting

    May 22, 2008
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    Russell
    #1 want2BSchumi, Dec 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Group,

    Over the holidays I had planned to complete an annual fluid change and inspection on my 348. Upon draining the oil, I found a number of small black plastic/rubber pieces, just a bit bigger than grains of sand, in the oil from the sump and the tank. (picture below)

    I investigated a bit further by putting a scope through the oil drain hole, and discovered a larger strip of plastic sitting in the recess below the front-most oil pump pickup. Luckily, the piece was only a few inches in from the hole and so I was able to pull it out with a long tweezers. The piece is pictured below, and is some kind of soft plastic (stiffer than rubber) that has been shredded and deformed.

    So now the question, what are these pieces of plastic from? My best guess is either the timing or oil pump chain tensioner pads. I was able to angle the scope upward enough to see the timing chain tensioner, which looks OK (well, at least not disintegrating). I can't see the oil chain tensioner pad, so I'm assuming that is the culprit. The car is a 1990 with 22k miles and as far as I know, the chain tensioners have never been replaced. Are there any other plastic/rubber parts in the system that could be coming apart?

    I just wanted to throw this out to the group before ordering all my parts. Regardless, I'll be dropping the motor over the next couple of days and will let everyone know what I find.

    Thanks guys.
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  2. 348Jeff

    348Jeff Formula 3

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    #2 348Jeff, Dec 27, 2012
  3. Extreme

    Extreme F1 Rookie

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    #3 Extreme, Dec 27, 2012
    It sorta looks like a gasket that has been chewed up by the chain, maybe someone dropped it on the previous service.
    I'm only guessing so take that for what it's worth.
     
  4. want2BSchumi

    want2BSchumi Karting

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    #4 want2BSchumi, Dec 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks for the replies. Regardless of what it is, something is coming apart in there that needs to be fixed.

    Motor is out; we'll see what I find when I start disassembling tomorrow. I'm still betting on one of those tensioner pads.
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  5. cuneo

    cuneo Formula 3
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    #5 cuneo, Dec 28, 2012
    How long did it take you to drop the motor? Obviously less than 10 hours and 25 minutes...
     
  6. jqpd99

    jqpd99 F1 Rookie
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    #6 jqpd99, Dec 28, 2012
    Took me 5 hours on my own using the two jack method and 3 hours using a two post lift...

    Following this thread with interest... #64 was falling apart on mine so I'm thinking this could be the culprit.

    DF
     
  7. jqpd99

    jqpd99 F1 Rookie
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    #7 jqpd99, Dec 28, 2012
  8. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    #8 Ricambi America, Dec 28, 2012
    That's kind of the whole point of the oil pump upgrade.

    1 x 171177 (Large Bearing) or 1 x 185343 (Small Bearing)
    1 x 169596 (Tensioner/Chain Tightener)
    1 x 147338 (Tension Pad/Chain Tightener)
    1 x 132808 (Driven Gear)
    1 x 170787 (Bearing)
    1 x 169595 (Bracket)
    1 x 169594 (Pin)
    1 x 171960 (Washer)
    1 x 11065474 (Snap Ring)
    1 x 150077 (Front Gasket)

    ...

    in addition to most of the full timing belt service kit, front crank seal, etc. The chains seem to be often reused. I'd say we sell 1 new chain for every 3 of the oil pump kits.
     
  9. want2BSchumi

    want2BSchumi Karting

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    #9 want2BSchumi, Dec 28, 2012
    Yes, I'll be doing the full oil pump upgrade, per TSB 10-34, that includes the bearings.

    It took me about 7 hours to drop the motor with a 2 post lift. I'm not nearly as fast as jqpd99 :)
     
  10. kingsdare

    kingsdare Karting

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    #10 kingsdare, Dec 28, 2012
    Which brand/model scope did you use? I want one!
     
  11. chas-3

    chas-3 Formula 3
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    #11 chas-3, Dec 28, 2012
    +1 I would pull the front cover and inspect that cam chain tensioner pad real good. My 1990 348 had 25K miles and that tensioner pad was literally crumbling to pieces. You need to inspect it where it is in contact with the chain. I don't think your scope would be able to see the damage. You can get the SRI replacement pad from Daniel.

    The long piece looks like black RTV. Maybe someone used some of that on a gasket on a previous service. Good reason not to use that stuff, or at least use it sparingly.

    Just my 2 cents. :)
     
  12. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 WATSON, Dec 28, 2012
    As do I!

    What scope do you have?
     
  13. want2BSchumi

    want2BSchumi Karting

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    #13 want2BSchumi, Dec 28, 2012
    The scope is from Harbor Freight, 3.5" LCD Inspection Camera, model 67980. The camera is the smallest diameter that I could find at about 1/4".

    Thanks for the suggestions. I will definitely pull the front cover and update the chain tensioners and bearings. I put in an order for one of the SRI pads yesterday.
     
  14. want2BSchumi

    want2BSchumi Karting

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    #14 want2BSchumi, Dec 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Upon removing the oil pan, I found what you see below... The black plastic pieces are gasket/glue used during the prior installation of the oil pan (at the factory as far as I know). I was shocked to see the amount of the gasket material in there. The small grains that I found during the oil change must be a result of these pieces getting chewed up in the chains. Not sure why it all decided to come loose now, but at least I found it now before it had a chance to plug an oil passage.

    Now that the motor is out, my plan is still a full service with all the "while I'm in there" stuff.
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  15. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran

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    #15 vvassallo, Dec 31, 2012
    Oh those funny Eyetalians!
     
  16. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #16 AceMaster, Dec 31, 2012
    I would take that as great news - that it wasn't anything falling apart in there.
     
  17. Ricambi America

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    #17 Ricambi America, Jan 1, 2013
    I'll bet if you found that much sealant in the pan, there are equal amounts elsewhere in the lump (and back).
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 fatbillybob, Jan 1, 2013
    In Los Angeles there was a famous guy back in the 80's who used tons of black RTV. So much so that when his cars came into my friends shop you could spot them. We used to joke about it and the cars still leaked!
     
  19. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #19 2NA, Jan 1, 2013
    That black crap doesn't look "factory" to me.
     
  20. MaterMech

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    #20 MaterMech, Jan 1, 2013
    Definately not factory! The pans use anerobic sealant not RTV and by the looks of it it was never cleaned and sealed properly.
     
  21. want2BSchumi

    want2BSchumi Karting

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    #21 want2BSchumi, Jan 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The pieces of black/brown sealant feel like stiff plastic, not soft and flexible like RTV. I suppose it could be some other type of liquid gasket or RTV that has significantly hardened over time. I assumed it was factory because none of the service records I have for the car indicate that the pan was ever removed, but clearly that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    Because they were the initial suspects, I've attached a few pictures of what the chain tensioners actually looked like. The oil pump chain tensioner had deep grooves and was starting to produce little chunks. The timing chain tensioner looks nearly perfect.
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  22. Extreme

    Extreme F1 Rookie

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    #22 Extreme, Jan 2, 2013
    Those are some deep groves is that pad supposed to be completely flat and smooth?
     
  23. want2BSchumi

    want2BSchumi Karting

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    #23 want2BSchumi, Jan 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Yes, the new one is completely flat.
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  24. phrogs

    phrogs F1 Veteran
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    #24 phrogs, Mar 28, 2013
    Those are going to wear over time, you have a chain riding on them its going to wear.
     

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