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Please explain 599 prices as compared to F12 prices

Discussion in '612/599' started by Adamas, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Phil- I disagree. There were several options for seats on the HGTE models. One owner here did not like the HGTE seats at all, so specced standard 599 seats. Most of the HGTE conversions were on earlier 599s, not the very late models. If she has the HGTE alcantara seats, which she does, that points to a factory HGTE, since those seats were not available on standard 599s.
     
  2. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 Formula 3
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    Seth
    Jose, Taz has already addressed the timing belt issue - they are good for five years and nothing more recent from the factory. I agree with you about the 575 that is also IMHO the most flawless Ferrari design ever. Below demonstrate why I would not have a 599, just too big; and bear in mind, the 575 is not a small automobile:




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  3. Da Butcher

    Da Butcher Karting

    Jan 9, 2018
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    Jose Marie Alandy
    Phil, since the HGTE option was introduced circa 2009 in the EU, most if not all of 2010-2011 HGTE models were factory installed since it was already available for $30K during the dealer ordering process. Only 2008 and 2009 models were retrofitted by dealers at a cost of $40K+ because the HGTE option was not/never available during those model years. According to Ferrari when I took possession of my 2007, there was also a cutoff based on VIN where HGTE couldn't be retrofitted on earlier 2007 models, eg, something like those with lower than 155XXX VIN. My previous 599 was 150566 so it couldn't be retrofitted. I'm not 100% certain of the exact VIN cutoff but that was what I was made to understand after I inquired.

    Re the missing "Handling GTE" sewn emblem on the seats, the factory allowed customers leeway on how they wanted to order their HGTE cars even before the now well known Tailor Made process was introduced. It wasn't a 'take it or leave it' policy at all that would have forced 599 customers then to accept all prescriptions of the HGTE option, especially those that didn't affect safety or performance or were merely 'cosmetic' in nature. For example, standard HGTE models were introduced with then new white faced tachometers but I've actually seen at least two factory HGTE models with yellow tachometers.

    Moreover, the HGTE sport seats design on my 2011 model has the standard combo feature of leather / black alcantara with full CF covered backs, albeit without the sewn emblem. There's even one beautiful, low mileage 2010 HGTE in Granite Gray / Brown for sale in the US right now without a tinge of the standard black alcantara in its interior (except on the bottom portion of its steering wheel), seats are all brown leather with full CF backs. Its elegant parcel shelf is done in all diamond-patterned Brown leather. Very different from standard HGTE cars yet its Ferrari window sticker clearly indicates the HGTE in its factory options list. I was first interested in that car but its asking price is too high, almost equal to asking prices for newer F12 cars with equivalent mileage.
     
  4. phil the brit

    phil the brit Formula Junior
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    Jul 7, 2013
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    Phil Taylor
    I will bow to your guys superior knowledge.
    I wonder if Ferrari allowed US purchasers more options than they did in the UK. Would not be the first time that had happened for sure.
    To my knowledge we, in the UK, did not have any where near as many options as you guys did. I have an options list for the 599HGTE in UK and we were only offered a seat choice (carbon backed sports seats or daytona seats) and choice of colour on seat belts. We were also of course offered different colour options on the seats we chose.
     
  5. flat_plane_eddie

    flat_plane_eddie Formula 3
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    Mar 30, 2013
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    Eddie
    I check 599 and F12 prices on a daily basis. They've been coming down this year but F12 prices have come down a bit more. I regularly see a few around 200-225k or best offer. I love the 599 but I think the F12 is a beautiful car whereas the 599 is good looking but not beautiful. For those that drive them a lot, the DCT is a lot more reliable too. I think 599s will go down a bit more in the next 3 months as the market catches up to all the unrealistic asking prices.
     
  6. Da Butcher

    Da Butcher Karting

    Jan 9, 2018
    54
    Full Name:
    Jose Marie Alandy
    Eddie,

    Just my 20 cents...

    Agree that F12 DCT is best for drivers who prefer not to shift themselves by use of the automatic transmission. They're very smooth and cuts shift times versus the 599 F1 Superfast version. First time I drove a car with DCT was a 911 Carrera 2 Convertible when Porsche NA invited me to sample their new Porsche Doppelkupplung at the Fontana Road Race Course circa 2009. At first, I was confused at what gear the car was in when I tried to shift manually during a follow-the-leader simulated race. Figured out PDK was much better by just leaving it alone and allow it do what it does best - shift seamlessly.

    Nevertheless, there are those of us traditionalists who would rather "control" some function of our cars and shift the tranny ourselves but don't want to over pay $350k+ for an '07 6-speed manual 599. The 599's F1 Superfast is perfect for that "involved" process especially when upshifting all the way up close to redline. The 599 shifts with the same sounds and "shove-in-the-back" force as the prior Ferrari V8 F1 race cars I've watched driven by Massa and Raikonnen during F1 races in the EU circa 10 years ago. That's absolutely addicting!

    Likewise according to a Ferrari Service Manager, shifting the 599 yourself causes less wear on its clutch. Based on experience from 599's whose owners always used the default automatic transmission, their cars' clutch wore down much faster especially when the mannetino has been set to Wet and Icy modes. He stated that the preferred modes were Sport or Race even in rainy conditions and to just be judicious in slowly stepping on the loud pedal. Not certain if there are sane owners who'd drive their 599 on glare icy roads.
     
  7. Themaven

    Themaven Formula 3
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    Darius
    I believe you are talking about the Atelier programme on 599s that allowed clients to build various bespoke elements into their cars. The Atelier programme covered four elements: road and track; exteriors and colours; interiors and materials; and equipment and travel. Far from being a separate model line, the HGTE package was the 'first and foremost' (in Ferrari's words) of the Road and Track/Track and Racing options package. There were almost infinite options available to the Atelier customer, including the parcel shelf option you mention above. You could specify a HGTE car and then bespoke the seats also - this was available around the world, not excluding the UK as a previous poster wondered.

    The only option I am aware of that differentiated between North America and the ROW is Launch Control (n/a in NA).

    Does the HGTE dealer retrofit include the gearbox and manettino program changes?

    I thought the 599 HGTE nicely packaged when I reviewed it but the 599 is not a car that rewards the driver at anything below highly committed speeds. The lighter, smaller and more powerful F12 was aimed at addressing that. I would not swap a F12 for a 599 GTB even with HGTE and I'd need to be persuaded why a F12 is worse than the slower, bigger, heavier 599 GTO. Aside from hype and rarity.
     
    flat_plane_eddie likes this.
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Darius- It depends on how early the 599 is. Earlier than SN 156938 here in the US (the kits have an engine number rather than SN), only the suspension parts and wheels can be fitted and not the shock ECU or F1 TCU. Not sure if that is when Motronic 7.1.1 was replaced by 7.3.2, but that is my guess. Full kits included the 85 ms TCU and the shock (body) ECU. This explains the kits although it should be noted the HGTE suspension and wheels could theoretically be fitted to 3 pedal 599s, although I am not aware of any.

    599 HGTE Retrofit kit

    For your 599, we offer the HGTE Retrofit kit which includes...

    Handling package - consisting of new more rigid springs and rear anti-roll bar as well as new calibration for the magnetorheological shock absorbers when in the sporty positions of the Manettino (SPORT and RACE positions). The handling features a better response time and a feeling of increased compactness without unduly compromising driving comfort. The car’s ride height has also been reduced and therefore the center of gravity lowered still further, which helps with the reduction of weight shift. The lowering of the center of mass combined with the new setup helps to reduce the squat and dive as well as pitch and roll, with the resulting benefit to the car’s dynamic performance.

    This setting reduces the static roll and rolling movements on the tracks as well as pitching. This gives the car faster turn-in and less under-steer effect. The car’s performance has also been improved with new tires which have been specially optimized for this package. They are characterized by a compound that helps to allow even more effective grip for better road holding combined with excellent ease of control.


    The front tires are fitted on modular rims with increased rigidity and a larger track. This improves axle performance which facilitates turn-in.

    These results are achieved through both mechanical and software changes:
    • Lower suspension (10mm)
    • New magnetorheologically controlled suspension calibration for the Manettino
    SPORT and RACE configurations
    • More rigid suspension springs (front + 16%, rear + 10%)
    • More rigid rear antiroll bars (diameter increased to 24.5 mm)
    • Tires with improved compound
    • Modular rims with reduced weight and special new design

    The kit also adds a strong styling component: the 20” modular rims with new design and finishing treatment. The rims have a forged flange to benefit weight. The design of the spokes is highlighted by a diamond surface treatment with a technical matte transparent trim called “Silver Corsa”.


    Performance package - NOTE-This kit cannot be installed on cars with manual gearboxes. Cars with VIN 156938 and greater can use this kit or HGTE Exhaust Kit part number 70001493 which is mufflers only.

    The installation of the “HGTE Performance” kit, which includes the replacement of the mufflers, exhaust pipes and new software settings, offers the client faster response of the engine controls. This enhances the car’s dynamic qualities which can be best experienced on the track.

    In performance driving conditions, the F1 gearbox activation is now more rapid. Indeed, thanks to optimized electronic control, the response time of the gear change command system has been reduced by 20 milliseconds during downshifting. A further enhancement involves engine control, which includes
    accelerator logic with modified mapping that enhances the rapid increase in revolutions along the wide engine use field.

    In addition, this kit includes exhaust tailpipes which are further enhanced in the rear ¾ views by the black chroming treatment on the side surface. The styling characteristics of the tailpipes are combined with a modification of the exhaust muffler. The sound produced by the car is more pronounced and exciting, especially for sports use, while maintaining a good level of comfort at cruising speed.

    Exhaust - Mufflers only upgrade

    Asthetic (exterior only) -
    Together with the other kits, or individually, this kit completes the “customization” of the exterior. It enhances the front area with the use of a grille with a special chromatic treatment where the Prancing Horse has a more definitive appearance due to a special brushed-finish treatment. The Prancing Horse with the same treatment is also available on the rear lid.



    Please give us a call regarding the HGTE kits. They can be done individually or as a whole. Boardwalk (Ferrari of Dallas).
     
    Themaven likes this.
  9. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie

    May 26, 2011
    2,521
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Terry, the HGTE muffler does seem to have a slightly lower note, than my standard muffler when I heard them side to side.
     
  10. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    George- Entirely possible. No telling what they did to the internals. We have cut up Maranello mufflers so have a pretty good idea, but not 599 mufflers.
     
  11. Da Butcher

    Da Butcher Karting

    Jan 9, 2018
    54
    Full Name:
    Jose Marie Alandy
    Terry,
    I bow to your model specific knowledge and opinions. During my relatively short (a year) on this 599/612 forum, I've learned a lot from you though I've also studied the 599 to some degree by reviewing old 2006-2009 Forza issues and online comments. Profuse thanks for sharing your time and talents to this forum.

    Since I'm only three days from taking delivery of the 2011 HGTE from FSB, one of my concerns (if I may call it that) is the reduced ride height of 10mm or 0.394" which has made the car possibly more prone to lower front bumper damage (even with scrape protectors installed which further reduces road clearance) from steep driveway ramps, a few older SoCal freeway onramps in disrepair, etc., especially when turning left/right spiritedly (outer front suspension lower due to centrifugal forces) to enter a raised onramp.

    I've actually scraped the front bumper of my previous 599GTB a few times that way to the point that a crack appeared and propagated from one of the holes drilled to attach the bottom scrape protector.

    I don't worry about parking lot blocks since I don't park my cars via the "Braille" method (which makes me cringe when I notice a nice car parked in that manner). I just allow the back end to stick out a bit.
     
  12. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Jose- If necessary, it should be possible to raise the ride height slightly (10 mm) without compromising ride or handling much at all. Will require a full four wheel alignment if you did that. US spec 575Ms with FHP (Fiorano Handling Package) came with the standard 575M ride height instead of the lowered ride height of the rest of world FHP models, even though all the suspension parts are identical.
     
  13. Da Butcher

    Da Butcher Karting

    Jan 9, 2018
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    Jose Marie Alandy
    Terry,
    I appreciate your suggestion to raise the HGTE ride height up to the original GTB level. How is that procedure performed - readjustment of the magnetorheological dampers' ECU minimum ride height setting or is it through mechanical readjustment of suspension components?
    I wonder if Ferrari dealer service mechanics are allowed to perform such a procedure which goes against factory HGTE standard engineering specification?
    Thanks again.
    Josè
     
  14. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Jose- Pretty simple operation, but lots of work. Normally compress springs and then adjust the spring perch ring nut to the desired ride height, repeat for other shocks. Then need to have front and rear toe and camber set (shims needed for the camber changes) to correct specs. 10 mm will easily be within normal adjustment.

    Many folks will tell you it is not necessary to compress the springs, but the threads on the shock body are aluminum and if you strip those, new shocks are the only answer.

    Ferrari should have no problem with adjusting the ride height for you if you explain why you want to do it. The 575M WSM showed US and Euro ride heights for FHP, but the 599 WSM was issued way before HGTE.
     
  15. Da Butcher

    Da Butcher Karting

    Jan 9, 2018
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    Jose Marie Alandy
    Terry, thank you very much for explaining the procedure and adding key caveats to prevent unwanted additional expenses. I'll discuss it with my dealer's service manager.
    I received a call an hour ago that confirmed my 2011 HGTE will be ready for delivery tomorrow, that is, if it doesn't rain here in SoCal or at least in the areas where I'll travel back home with the car. It's not preferable to drive a newly owned car in the rain, especially in LA freeway traffic where there are a lot of unscrupulous idiots driving.
     
  16. stan996turbo

    stan996turbo Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2004
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    Stan
    I think the 599 is a very attractive street car but the cost to fix seemingly inevitable leaking shocks makes the proposition much less attractive.
     
  17. Da Butcher

    Da Butcher Karting

    Jan 9, 2018
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    Jose Marie Alandy
    Terry,
    When I picked up my car today, the GM at F-SB confirmed that they can readjust the ride height up by 10mm to standard GTB specs or even up 5” he joked if I prefer a raised pickup look!

    First though, I want to drive the HGTE around to determine if that’ll be an obligatory adjustment to prevent me from wrecking the bottoms of its front bumper.

    Regardless, thanks again for your valuable ideas and suggestions.
     
  18. LightGuy

    LightGuy Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 4, 2004
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    Then buy the aftermarket shocks.

    As an owner of neither the 599 looks SO MUCH more stunning.
    Is it larger in volume ?
    Who cares !

    [​IMG]
     
    Makuono likes this.
  19. Da Butcher

    Da Butcher Karting

    Jan 9, 2018
    54
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    Jose Marie Alandy
    Now having driven both my previous '07 GTB and my new '11 HGTE, I can clearly compare how they differ in handling with manettino setting both at 'Sport' and since both were/are shod in Pirelli PZeros at similar mileage. What I can't separate is whether my opinion or feeling is somewhat shaded by the cars' age, one being 5 years older and therefore possibly had time-degraded MagneRide shocks and suspension fittings.

    Test reports from the '09 era stated that Pirelli shod HGTE's with a newer, stickier and therefore softer compound, so I am not able to say whether that fact also biased my feelings. Wheels are both 20" diameter with the HGTE having 8-1/2" fronts versus 8" on GTB's.

    The HGTE handles so much better and is a pleasant surprise given it's more relatively compliant ride after having been advised by Ferrari sales that the HGTE might ride harsher. A Mercedes SL-AMG (which I've owned for 11+ years) it is not in terms of ride comfort but it's not that far off when compared to the GTB. Whereas the GTB sounded and felt like it "crashed" on every road rut and freeway markers, the HGTE drives over them with a relatively quieter mode and hardly disturbs its handling; sort of like it had a "bumpy road" feature that the Scuderias and onward models have had as a standard feature.

    Needless to say more, I'm ecstatic with this HGTE find and can't wait until I can drive it more. SoCal is currently being bombarded by rainstorms (which we need) from yesterday until Thursday so I've been "chomping on the bit" with a smile on my face. ;<))
    Cheers, forum mates.
     
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  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jose- Congratulations on your new girlfriend.
     
  21. F3RN4ND0

    F3RN4ND0 Karting

    Nov 16, 2015
    84
    Madrid, Spain
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    Fernando B.
    Enjoy her in good health!

    We re missing a picture or two here ;)
     
  22. Da Butcher

    Da Butcher Karting

    Jan 9, 2018
    54
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    Jose Marie Alandy
    Thanks Terry. Not too loud though that my wife might hear!
    Fernando, it's been raining hard here in the Los Angeles area for four days now. As soon as the sun shines again and my car has been cleaned appropriately, I'll post pictures. Salud!
     

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