Hi, I recently took my 1990 348tb for a nice long drive of approx 85kms. I was suprise visiting a friend who turned out not to be at home, when I returned to start the car after about 10mins it wouldn't start, the started motor wouldn't work. The ignition lights all functioned normally and the imobilizer light also extinguised as per usual. But when I turned key to start the engine, nothing. Not even a click. As luck would have it I was parked on a slight hill so I bump started her and went STRAIGHT HOME. Once I got back I attempted to start her straight away and again nothing. I tapped the started and tried again but she wouldn't turn over. I went inside to consult the owners manual to try to find out where the relay or fuse for the starter motor is located. It doesn't appear to have one! I checked the brotherhood to try and find a simular thread but had no luck (I am useless at this and probably typed in the wrong keywords!) After around 1hr of soul searching I returned to the now cool car and attempted to start her. She started 1st time!!!! I then repeated this 10 to 15 times and every time the starter motor turned and the engine fired. I then decided to try and replicate the heat and get the engine bay hot so I went for a 15km drive. Returned back home and switched engine off. Attempted to start and she started 1st time no problem. I am now more worried than if she hadn't started! At least I would have then known there is a fault if she didn't start! I have now lost faith in my car and am affraid to take her out in case she doesn't start again and I get stranded. Its impossible to always find a hill to park on!!! This is not good, I hope you guys can help point me in the right direction. Is this a common fault? I am in Australia and unfortunately not many people over here have a clue about these cars. They charge the earth and more importantly haven't got a clue. Therefore I do all my own work on her. I have fitted a new battery 8wks ago and I had the starter motor reconditioned 8mths ago as part of the main engine out service. I did this as insurance even though there was nothing wrong with the started motor. And now this happens! Help!!!!
First place to start. Aftermarket alarm systems are notorious for this and often have a starter cut out not to mention the install wiring is always sub-standard. Pull the starter out and remove the solenoid cover and look at the heavy bare wire for cracks. Becoming a fairly common fault on the gear reduction starters. The wire is stiff enough that when it cracks it will stay in position and arc back together for a while.
Recently stripped and cleaned one. Here are plenty of tear-down pictures if you decide to open her up -> http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217214&highlight=anatomy+starter+denso PS - It'd be nice to have a DMM available for some electrical testing on the internals
Thanks guy's, I have checked the connections on the starter and they are all ok. I don't think its the starter thats the problem. It has just been refurbished and when I short out the large +ve wire to the small white wire that is the switch from the ignition ,the starter fires every time.
...........so it might be the alarm that cuts out the key, as suggested before. Happened to me 2 years back when we were supposed to board a ferry. A few hairy moments till we found out what caused the circus. Cars behind us all wanted to get aboard and we couldn´t get the engine started even. On and off with the alarm a few times and suddenly it worked again. Guess those things happen with 15 years old cheap electronic stuff. //B// Image Unavailable, Please Login
I had the same issue lived with it for a few months but finally took it in and had the starter rebuilt. Once this was done I have not had any more issues at all.
Did the starter operate with the shorted wire when it wouldnt start with the key? Take it slow and methodical so you dont confuse what you do know for positive and keep notes. This is the key to finding sporadic electrical gremlins. Refurbished starter only means it is moved down the list a place or two, not removed. Engine bay connections at the fender well plug are another problem area seen often. It was a starter, CEL and running issue (came and went at random) that started me on the Gold contact terminal replacement for the Motronic system on a 2.7 355 which led to all of the engine bay terminals being replaced with Gold contacts. That should put the brakes on the aging process and corrected every problem on a number of cars now. I found engineering specs on the OE contacts and they only assumed a reliable service life of 10 removal and assemble cycles. Surely they have lasted longer than this but it does make them a higher level suspect as I have now found. Dave
Seeing that you have a '90 you should still have the bullet connectors. I would suspect those first before anything else. The bullet connectors have a tendency to get loose and cause this very problem. They will also cause the car to loose connection with the alternator, and thus not charge the battery while you are driving. One is located right under the air filter box and runs from the positive terminal on the battery to the starter. The other runs from the negative terminal on the battery to the ground on the frame. Check and make sure that they are clean and making good contact. If you need to make the connection tighter you can use a zip tie to help keep them snug. Me, I just got rid of the stupid things all together and ran solid cables for both.
I agree with Ernie. My 90 TS had exactly the same problem after a long hot drive try start and it is dead, all the lights everything is working but the starter motor wont turn over. Then I would have to wait about 10 min for everything to cool down and then turn the key and it would fire straight away. Once when it was dead I fiddled with the bullet connectors and then tried again and it turned over and fired straight away. It has nothing to do with the starter motor but the bullet connections are the problem. Check from the battery along all the cables and make sure the connectors are perfect. This took away my problem.
Sounds like a connection problem. You may have insuffient amperage to turn the starter yet when you measure the voltage, it shows up as a good value. Look for loose or rusty connections would be my first bet. When you find it, there's probably some carbon deposit on it leading to further increase in resistance.
The same exact thing happened to me last year. any long trip caused the electrical system to cease operation. Duringthe Major, I reported this to my mechanic from F of NE. He had no explaination but did say he found one of the battery leads to be "loose". Since my major, i have about 4000 miles on the car and it has not happened again....Hmmm
I also had this problem and the cars from the late 80's to mid 90's had a very poor wiring system. Check the wire from the battery to the starter motor and the grounds. Some cars had a bullet connector in the line and these give a lot of problems. If you have them make sure they are clean or better yet get a new cable made without them. If you have good power to the starter motor, check to see if the solenoid engages when you try to start the car. If the solenoid does not engage, check to see if you get voltage in the solenoid wire when you try to start the car. If you have voltage and know that the starter and solenoid are good, you can try a Bosch hot start kit. It is a relay that is activated by a week start voltage and sends a strong voltage to the solenoid. It has all the correct wires and connectors. I think the part number is Bosch WR1 and is about $30.00 from Rock Auto. It is probably available from a parts house in your area also. I have not had any problems starting since installing it.
Thanks everyone, It's good to have all your feedback and know I am not alone! From all your experiences one thing keeps popping up and thats those connectors. I have checked the -ve lead from the battery and this is simply earthed via a thick copper strap direct to the gearbox clutch cover. It has no connectors in line. I will remove the airbox tomorrow when I return from work and check the connector that runs from the battery +ve to the starter motor. I will report my findings once I have done this. Thanks again guys.
Thanks for the help Dave, In answer to your question I do not know. I wasn't at home and didn't have any wire to short out the terminals. I was in a panic when the car wouldn't start and just did the 1st thing that sprung to mind which was bump start her. Once I'd done this and she was running I just wanted to get the hell home!!! I have made a simple piece of wire with a spade connector on it which I will put in the glove box. So if this occurs again I will check and have the answer. The Gold connectors sound fantastic. I cannot believe Ferrari use such poor quality connectors as standard! Having said that nothing really suprises me anymore!
Consumer acceptable that has really worked fairly well over the years. Time for a change after this long and I saw good reason to up the standards, hence the Gold. I too was shocked at the cycle life and know I far exceeded those numbers when some of these cars were in for warranty repairs. I suspected that that was how things worked, I fully agree with your thoughts at the time and would have done exactly the same. The other posters bring up a very good point. I have not had a problem with the large bullet connectors in the last few years as I have removed most of them while doing a service on the cars. Out of sight, out of mind... Good place to look as well. You have a good plan in place and shouldnt worry too much about future use. Keep a log and you will find it. Dave
The Bullet connector under the airbox was the cause of my problems. When that was sorted out the problem was gone.
Thanks Guys, Tonight I removed the airbox and found the large red connector. It almost fell apart in my hand. Upon opening it I found signs of slightly melted plastic at the base of the male connector coming from the starter motor. This obviously shows its been getting warm. The copper was also a very dirty colour, not black but more a dirty brass colour. I have used some electrical contact cleaner and cotton buds to clean it all out. I then reconnected and used a tie wrap to help secure as per Ernies advice. It feels alot better now. I think this could be my problem. Even if it isn't it cannot have been a good thing and I am certain the car will be better for having the contact improved. I will replace this connector completely in due course. Will go on another long drive this weekend and see if this cures it. I will advise if this doesn't work so if you don't hear anything over the next month or so consider that its sorted! Luckily my earth lead doesn't have one, it's just a large copper strap that goes direct to the gearbox clutch cover. Thanks again for all your help. Three cheers for the Brotherhood!
Sounds like it could have been that mate! Thanks for the update! It wouldnt take much to take it to an auto elec and get them to replace it with a new/better plug. That or cut the plug out and hard wire/solder it together!
Glad to hear you got the problem sorted out, and thanks for updating us. It helps others that may come across the same problem in the future. Be sure you have a ground/earth strap attached to the frame of the body in addition to being attached to the gear box. These cars get REALLY finicky when they aren't grounded properly. And as I said earlier, I just replace the stupid bullet connector altogether and ran a solid cable from the starter to the battery. Bad connection problems solved.
