Please Help: Looking for an old Ferrari

wayne,

i think you are going to find yourself in the same predicament regarding these cars. their values have escalted so much in the last 24 months, due to no reason more than the valuation of the euro. most of these "reasonabley" priced cars are leaving the u.s. the cars that i thought were a "great deal" two years ago still are by u.s. standards. however, the euro has changed that. u.s. prices are going up to offset the cars going overseas. two years ago, you couls buy a 275 gtb all day long for less than $200k. today, look towards $300k to even have a chance at buying. the euro amazes me. the economies in europe are by no means great, yet they are stronger than the u.s. ecomony. until things change, the older cars will conitinue to grow in value.

 

I just had a paint job in the low teens, and my gte has new brakes, exhaust, gauges, overdrive, clutch, fuel system with tank and lines, and lots, lots of details....so i am getting close to having a very nice example.
Of course....I would only part with it to upgrade to a 1999 360 Modena, so I might need to wait a bit for one to come down, and the other to go up a little more. Not only that, but i would want to trade across in order to avoid initial tax consequences. The next move would be to get a 1900 Alfa coupe to satisfy my vintage bug. All crazy theories, of course, but it is part of the disease.
In all likelyhoods, most peeople are keeping the cars, or asking silly $ for overrestored ones.
You are welcome to a test drive when in northern california...

I do know of a 4 headlight 330 locally, and a 412, both for Camry money. I also know of an unadvertised Dino for sale, if you choose to branch out.

 

i do not think it is just the euro. there are other factors:
-they are not making anymore, compared to ferrari making 15,000 of the 360 model now...
-post 9/11 syndrome. people like tangible assets
-nasdaq crash. see above: a lot of people are staying away from the stock market
-internet. it makes owning these cars easier. thanks to tomyang, fchat, kerryC, etc.
-pure nostalgia, and people who pine for these cars now being in prime earning bracket, and here, the muscle cars paved the way, instead of the other way around

Will there be a repeat of the 80s runup and then an early 90s crash? i do not see it at present prices, but if we go up a lot more from here, maybe a correction....

 

i too do not think an 80's style price increase is in the future several years. i do think we will see a constant increase in value based on inflation. most owners are getting to the point where they will sell for above market prices, but have no interest in selling at current market prices. they bought the cars to enjoy and cam enjoy for next to nothing when they consider the of depreciation. i have a testarossa that i don't enjoy enough. i do not think they depreciate anymore than they already have. my tr is payed for, why discount it to sell it if i do not have to? a year from now, the car won't be worth any less. the vintage ferrari owner is in a different position, why sell it today when it will hold it's value and be worth more a year from now?

 

I, too, see the timelessly classic older coachbuilt Alfas as a brilliant vintage drive with tremendous heritage, reliability and usefulness - I must admit a strong desire for an Alfa 1900 CSS as well. Good and inexpensive parts availability to boot, straightforward to maintain. I think at least for a while as the older Ferraris spiral upward, the older Alfas may well increase in popularity.
And, coincidentally from Wayne's referenced site, here is a nice 1900 CSS for sale if you've never seen one:
http://www.fantasyjunction.com/search.php?dd=www.fantasyjunction.com:auto:FJ138

best
rt

 

The odds of finding this car is highly unlikely, may not exist. Had a better chance with a more desirable model 330GTC/Daytona. Most enthusiast have to build entry level cars to level you require, and then they do not become available. Few are turn key. A good core and sweat equity/or a large check book will produce this car.

Few, very few entry level cars have been restored to the 9's, if you want one, you will need to roll up your sleeves and build it on your own, similar to Tom Yang's many year adventure.

Good luck with your search.

Tom Shaughnessy
Realist
Ferrari parts and Sales
San Clemente CA

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...!!! Get a Daytona...! GET A DAYTONA...!!!


...please...

 

There´s nothing wrong with a 250GTE (or 330 America)!



Go for it Wayne. I hope you succeed.

 

Wayne,

With all the cars you have been looking at. Why not get a Daytona and (looking left, looking right and whispering) repaint it to yellow or black.

 

Wayne:


At least you will not be let down too hard


I ask why thousands Ferraris of cars have sold in a variety of shapes,size and colors, during your multi-year search? Missed Lusso, daytona and now GTC's. Were no lusso good enough?? Several platinum level cars sold in the past 3 years and the one that were not to this level could or have been made into the cars the owner's wanted.

Why are your requirements so hard to fill????
Unrealitic expectations ???? Price/Quality and then Color.
I know you are the customer and the customer is always right,
but you remain a Ferrari-less customer.

Guess this forum is appropriately named FERRARI CHAT


Tom Shaughnessy
Ferrari Counselling

disclaimer: These comments are attempted to be relayed constructively

 

i agree...! A black, 2 headlight 330 America, like this one (which is listed as light blue) would be awesome and i could definitely see Wayne in it...

...but the odds of him finding one of these aren't very good...

 

DAYTONA! Why settle for less?

I think you CAN get a Daytona to fit your needs. You will probably have to pay $125K - $130K and it will have needs. I would expect such a "driver" to need some interior work, minor mechanical work and perhaps paint at some point in the future. But, it should be solid and mechanically decent. Then you can slowly bring it up to what you like.

Or.... you can pony up $150K+ "IF" you can find a really great car for sale. My advice... buy the lesser car and enjoy the process and try to do as much as you can yourself.

I paid $125K for mine 1.5 years ago. I thought it was nicer than it was... I have since dropped about $20K and spent tons of time on the car but now it really is in fantastic shape. All I need now is a few stickers and a complete tool roll and it will be platinum (Tom... PM me if you have a tool roll!). I have done most of the work myself and enjoyed it. I still have some undercarriage detailing and other minor trim issues to go, but look forward to the effort.

The tough thing is I just dont see any cars in truely Platinum condition for sale. Its so much effort to get a car to this state that once its there, who would want to sell it? What if someone offered me $225K? If I sold, then where would I be? Looking for another car.... basically in Waynes shoes! So I have no intentions of selling because I want the car not $$$. I think most owners of similar condition cars feel the same way. Its just so much effort and $ to get the car to really top notch shape that selling it is painful.


Terry

 

You know, Tom (and Wayne),

I frequently offer this very same advice when newbies ask me about the purchase of 308s. There are VERY few pristine examples out there, as they were purchased and USED by the owners. More power to them!!

An unused 328, and they are out there, command stratospheric asking prices, and we all know they'd have problems to address too.
The trick is to search as best you can, buy what you can afford (sometimes financed in my case) and then GET TO WORK making it YOUR Ferrari.

It's a slow process on limited budgets, but at the end of the day you have what you want!

They don't listen, but that's what I tell 'em..........

Greg328's shoppin'.....Carreaper is drivin'...........LOL!

Best of luck Wayne, you'll run across 'your deal' if you stay at it!

 

This is a very poignient statement. It's how values truly go higher. I read all the time people saying things like $XXX for a non QV 308i is too much. Well, if we find that owners aren't willing to take less, then that's what they will be worth. When the buyers become more motivated than the sellers, prices go up.

People tell me my Europa in it's current condition (pretty nice but not show quality, yet!) is "only" worth $XX but to buy one would cost me 50% more IF I could find one as nice.

Ken

 

I agree with Tom. I've seen some fantastic affordable Ferraris bought and sold in the last month. the problem is the prices are going UP not down because of the Euro. Every month that goes by U.S. prices are going up to Euro values. "All" the affordable Ferraris need work. Most enthusiasts can't afford an open checkbook restoration. If you want it affordable you need to do some of the work yourself and have a good relationship with your "parts supplier". Most parts are not available new. Get the best most complete car you can afford NOW. Once you have the car you can take forever to restore it. Part of the process is planning the color combination and specifications. There are plenty of people out there that will help you once you've taken the plunge. I saw an incredible 250GTE last week beautifully restored by the owner in an original period Silver/Green metallic w/ Dark Green Connolly leather. It was FANTASTIC!!! This 250GTE could compete with any classic Ferrari because it was exceptionally executed by a proud owner. You will learn more once you've spent your money and 30 minutes with your new car than a lifetime sitting on the fence.

Freeman

 

Give Wayne a break. He is trying to do what he and other experts preach.
It might be hard to pull the trigger if someone is a detail oriented person, or a perfectionist.

When I bought my car, I tried to follow the advice of "get the vest you can afford, let the other guy pay for your restoration, get the car for free". But a car appeared in Europe, it was the right color, wife said OK (expiration date on that one), I did a PPI, and even though it had some needs (sat for 2 years), the basics were sound (no rust, healthy engine). I did the repaint because of a vandal, and brought it up a level. I could have waited for a cleaner car, but I lacked the patience and I wanted the V12 experience right now. The work that I either did on the car, or outsourced, was a great trip, netted some cool friends, and in the end, I actually ended up in a position where I did not loose money (OK, OK, I am afraid to add everything up, but it is close).

Hope this perspective helps.

 

Freeman is right about sitting on a fence - just buy something. Today’s retail is tomorrow’s steal, and if I’m wrong and values do go down, well you can’t take it with you.
In the long term this is how I see it: Forty eight hours after our sun goes out/blows up no one will give a damn about the price of Ferrari cars so ultimately they are all valueless.

(And if you think that’s pessimistic try this for size:
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal condition!)
Kram

 

I agree with Terry. I originally wanted to hold out for the 2+ or nicer Daytona for $150K. Guess what. They don't exist anymore. I came to the realization that a really clean 3+ driver would suit me just fine. I get enjoyment from the car now. I also find that taking care of the cars needs gives me a great sense of satisfaction, thus further bonding me with the car. I didn't get this feeling with 360 Modena I had, and didn't enjoy it as much.

The Daytona I bought was mechanically very strong with no immediate repairs needed. The paint is very presentable, not great but not bad either. I don't feel compelled to re-paint it anytime soon. The interior has the right patina and has character. I may want to recover the dash and replace the carpets, but I prefer the warm and inviting look of patina'd leather seats over new leather. The engine compartment is very clean and tidy and looks like a well cared for older engine compartment should look like.

The more time I spend with this car, the more I love it. I love the way it drives. I love the way it smells. I love the way it sounds. I even love the color of the Rosso paint. Why postpone joy? The Daytona is the car you really want. Anything else won't fill the hole. So, stop being so darn picky and get one now before they go the way of the Lusso and 275GTB.

-steve

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Correction: It was a 330 America.
Freeman

 

Be careful Wayne, if inflation hits here hard, the prices will contine to escalate at a pace which could keep you from many smiles for a long time.

I hope you find the dream machine. I've decided to look for another car and the market is scaring me at what some folks are asking.

 

In such a thinly traded market with small volumes of cars of varying condition, there is really no such thing as "market", as there is for mass produced cars or even modern Ferraris. The range of actual transaction prices for these types of cars is so large as to make only the range meaningful.

 

The Silver/Red 330GTC Tom just got in and sold was a beautiful example for the money. It was perfect for an enthusiast who was looking for a good example and was affordably priced especially when I see what other good examples are going for. It needed some mechanical work(trans),Could have been the last great deal on a 330GTC that wasn't "needy".

Freeman

 

Get a Boxer instead. It's not yet vintage, but is already a classic that will give you years of enjoyment. Examples can be had from $65k to $85k depending on the condition. While I don't know if their value will increase as much as a Lusso has done, I am confident that Boxers will continue to increase in value over the years. Regardless, they are a blast to drive and have some of the most beautiful lines ever designed by Pininfarina.