Poll 355 Valve guides

I have heard many problems about the 355 factory headers burning through, and it does seem to be a huge problem. Even a Fchat poll show a susbstantial number of us have had to deal with this issue. But people are always saying how the 355 has a bad reputation for valve guide prematurely wearing, yet I don't know of anyone who has ever had this happen to thier car. Even Louie at FofLI (who is well know in these parts as the best Ferrari mechenic around) has never had to do a valve guide replacement without having a car with other very worn parts being the reason for replacement. SO I thought a poll was in order.

 

Michael, no problems here. Take a read of the following thread. One of the Top 10 posts in FerrariChat of all time.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5554

 

I have read that post Vik, but people seem to keep beating this to death anyway (http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37714), I'm hoping this poll might clear things up. I'm going to try to single handidly change the 355 valve reputation . Ut oh, just got a thumbs down vote already....

 

Michael--

By the way, how've you been my friend? I've been real busy as I'm sure you have...

I sense that with this poll you might be trying to quell a deep-down realization that doomsday might be coming with respect to the valve guides on your '95 355 engine...

My opinion,which I think is a very sensible conclusion, on the valve guide issue for some 355s is this: doomsday is not definitely coming, but it very well might. I just don't think the valve guide issue is at all debatable. Some cars are high-risk; some are not.

If I had a 355 whose position in the development cycle would make it a high-risk car for doomsday (I like that word ), I would simply do the valve guide update and live in peace. It's not worth it to be "a believer" and then all of a sudden get hit with $25,000 engine re-build.

So if you have a '95-'97 (and some '98s) car, I would say that you should swallow the bitter pill of spending a few thousand dollars to save over $20 thousand.

KEEP ON VOTING!

 

Actually Dave this poll is to exactly disprove what you are saying. Where did your 95-97 data come from? SOme guys who knows all about cars told you? Some 98's? What 98's? Red one or blue ones? Did you read it in a tech magazine? Did you mechenic in Huntington tell you this? Would you get a heart bypass because later in life you might have a heart attack and this will save you? According to your theory would that make you "a believer'?
I'll let the poll speak for itself, and any EDUCATED or professional input will be appreaciated, but let's get away from this "myth" already.......

 

Just bought a 97 355 spider....has 27k miles, and I requested a compression/leakdown test be performed. Being that it was a consigned car, the FNA dealer did not have a tremendous stake in the outcome...they had previously performed a compression test before accepting the car for consignment, and it was consistant across both banks. The leakdown numbers were excellent as well. I figure this car will "dodge the bullet" for now.

I have seen the previous thread saying that the valve guide problem is overblown....I doubt the veracity of the claims, since most quoted sources comes from FNA and Ferrari Spa.

I have personally seen five 1995 355's getting valve guides done at various dealers and independent service facilities in the past couple months while conducting my search. Did not see any other years, but have been told by them that on rare occaisions a 96 or 97 had been done in the past. I will go way out on a limb and hazard a guess that 40% or more of 95's have or will need valve guides done. It "appears" that only 10 to 15% of the later (mainly 96-97) have had valve guide issues. This is all my own opinion and conjecture...so must be take with a grain of salt...(flame suit donned, so fire away).

It is also my opinion that Ferrari orginally thought that they were mainly having a problem with bad "batches" of the bronze guides....both in 95 and apparently in 97...by 98 they realized that maybe it was more an issue with the wrong material (bronze) for that particular application; thus the change to sintered steel, sometime in 98.

Will all 95's or even 96 or 97's have a problem? Probably not, but I would say that in order of problems...each successive year seems better than the previous...

If you are concerned, get a compression/leakdown test performed...it will not guaranty no problems in the future, but can at least give you a good idea of the general health at present. I would also guess that if you have 20k miles or more, and the numbers are good, that you have a good chance of never having a problem.

 

Michael--

Actually I browsed through the excellent links that Vik (Ghost) provided above, and there are opinions given by a range of people--not just 355 valve-guide trumpeters. These facts are plain: not all 355s are high-risk for a valve guide failure; some are. Those facts aren't debatable.

And by the way, my opinion on this was formed many months ago after research of the facts. I don't make conclusions based on hearsay--I research the hearsay to find out what the facts are. I don't feel like dredging the source, but the fact is that at some point in the 1998 production the valve guides issue was addressed at the factory. I'm sure more of a 355 expert can elaborate. If you didn't know that, I'm surprised.

I just don't think this issue is debatable. That many (too many) 355s have had this problem is not debatable. We can debate whether a particular 355 owner should or should not make a pre-emptive strike, but that is an endless debate and not very helpful. I just gave my personal opinion.

The poll will indeed speak for itself and I think polling this issue is a great idea. I've actually come to be a real proponent of polls as you may have determined from my own recent bombardment of the Classic forum with polls!

But what if the people who have replaced their valve guides don't show up to vote in this poll? Does that mean that the valve guide issue "is not all it's cracked up to be?" Maybe it isn't "all that it's cracked up to be," but it's still an issue worth considering.

By the way, Michael, didn't Notoboy just rebuild his engine due in part to "deteriorating valve guides?"

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37264

The fact is that many 355s have had valve guide problems.

 

One potential problem with this poll, is that many cars are not driven much...so they may not have a problem...yet. Let's face it, there are still a LOT of 355's out there with less than 10 to 15k miles on them. They're hardly broken in yet.

 

Dave in your earlier post you wrote "I would also guess that if you have 20k miles or more, and the numbers are good, that you have a good chance of never having a problem."
Than you just wrote "is that many cars are not driven much...so they may not have a problem...yet 10 to 15k miles on them. They're hardly broken in yet"
So your opinion is this problem will only occur in 355's with between 15K-20K on them? Just trying to undertstand your view.

 

If everyone who responds to this poll could please also write what year your car is it would greatly increase the poll accuracy, thank you.

I believe one of the failed cars -mrmckay is a 98' 355GTS (correct me if thats not right)

Mine is 95 Spider....

 

Michael,
My thought is that from posts I have seen, the problem has generally presented itself by 20 to 25k miles. But, many cars have not even reached 10k miles, so to say "I have never had a problem"...does not mean they are free from the potential in the future.

But I have to admit that everything I am stating is conjecture from reading the many posts here and on the "other site" over the past three or four years. As you stated, the most meaningful posts will be from the technicians that are actually working on these cars day to day, and have the first hand knowledge.

 

You know mine Michael - 1995 B. "No issues" vote on the poll.

 

My 355 F1 was built 08/98. Owned since new.
47,000 kms...no problems with valve guides...just exhaust manifolds!

Andrew

 

What is the typical cost of replacing the valve guides?

Thanks,

Joe

P.S. Perhaps owners could include that number as well as the model year and serial number of the car.

 

Also, what is considered to be "good/acceptable" values for both compression and leakdown test results?

Thanks again,

Joe

 

95 355 15,897 miles no valve guide problems,,,but manifolds went south,then a cam pully bearing went south ,and while the motor was out for that found a bad cam tentioner ,water pump was 10 years old and looking a bit tired and might as well replace the motor mounts.
IT'S ONLY MONEY!!
DAVID
ps oil pump chain too

 

'99 355 GTS 15k miles. No issues.

Robert.

 

"I'm going to try to single handidly change the 355 valve reputation"

Seems to be the wrong way to start a true poll, but that is just a personal thing.
Every time I have done a valve guide replacement it showed up with a rough idle caused by a great amount of carbon built up on the intake valves. Some were so bad that the valve had to open 1/3 of its full lift to open the port to air flow. In these cases the carbon had formed on the intake valve so thick that it was a template of the valve seat and port area.
In one case I tried chipping away the carbon with the valve closed through the intake track with the engine out for a major, all to have it come back in 4 months and require the engine to be removed again and have the guides replaced. As you can well imagine the performance gain on these cars with the carbon buildup is incredible when it is removed. We are not talking about the light coating of carbon, we are talking about 3/8" thick buildup.
Why some, and not all? Only ideas here and no facts. Brian ("Rifledriver") and I have debated this numerous times with other tech's while at school at FNA back in our dealership days. In my opinion no conclusive facts have been arrived at yet. Latest ideas were that many cars left the factory with guides that had a very loose fit to the valves, which would then wear rapidly past the range that the seals would hold back the flow of oil. Brian, any updated ideas on this?
To date I have done (2) 97 valve guide replacements (as well as a couple of pre 97 cars), and currently have (3) 97 engines dissembled for other reasons. Over the course of the next few days these will be checked out for guide issues as well, but 2 or the 3 of these show no visual tell tale signs of bad guides, with the 3rd yet to be visually inspected.
There is getting to be too much hearsay regarding the 355 problem areas and this will only hurt the credibility of this site. I found myself defending this site and the wealth of information in it just Friday (that will be a whole new thread if I am pushed again on that front).
Failure analysis is a difficult thing to do accurately, but is necessary to getting to the bottom of these problems. With the push to get things done as cheaply as possible the job of analyzing the source of the problem gets lost in the rush to complete the repairs. My replies in the technical section regarding the 355 header issues / fitment of the Tubi headers and the quality of them, was an attempt to offer up facts, as I see them, after hands on knowledge. Please lets let facts speak for themselves and label theory as such, and from this we can all gain knowledge from debate.
Dave

 

And again I'm am trying to convay to you, that as for now it is NOT fact. As of 11/15/2004 a little over 81% of poll resonders seem to disagee with you

 

Michael--

The valve guide issue was addressed at the factory at some point in 1998. This really is common knowledge. I've posted just one link below, but do a search either on Google or FerrariChat and you'll find plenty of confirmation of this fact.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/256560.html?1054899989

Here's the relevant text from that link:



Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 2:53 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject F355 Valve Guides:

Starting from assembly #27689 all 355 Engines are equipped from the factory with new Valve guides, which are manufactured with Sintered Steel instead of Bronze.
New updated part numbers are:
Intake Guide #176437
Exhaust Guide #176438
Note: will need new style Guide Installer.

The assembly number is located in the engine compartment/Plate and I have seen some very early 98's with lower numbers.
Also out of many sub-27689 355's I service only one has had a leakdown problem and it was a Street/track car and had went through two sets of Exhaust Manifolds under warranty and the last time the owner ran the car for sometime with a blown exhaust manifold knowing he was going to do a Valve Job {FNA BO on Manifolds at the time}. Also note that most the cars I service were purchased new or low miles and ran Swepco 306 Engine oil and Swepco 503 Fuel Additive.

Cheers
TP

RE: TSB 764
PS Do I love early 355's "Yes" Early 355's rock!

 

Davehelms,
The carbon build up is an interesting observation. The car I recently bought had an initially uneven compression readings...enough so, that the dealer would not accept the car for consignment earlier this year. They suspected carbon build up (had seen it on previous 355's with poor compression) and added some sort of General Motors additive, and asked the owner to drive the car more "spiritedly" than usual. They felt the owner was driving very sedately the past few years of ownership. He came back after several hundred miles and all the compression numbers looked great.

 

While having my engine out 30k service in March of this year we did a leak down test and found 2 cylinders did not do very well. The dealer FoOC (Allen Woodard) told me this valvle guide issue is mostly a big myth...

That said I felt that becuase the engine was out & it would only cost another 1000 I decided to just have it done and put the issue to bed. I can now document the rebuild should that be an issue at resale time and I can sleep better at night not worring about a major Sh*t sandwich coming when I'm not looking...

My car is a 1995 355B

 

**** sanwiches definitely don't tase good! lol

 

personally i don't think the valve guide problem is a myth

My f355 symptoms were :

-Smoking on decel (sometimes)
-Fouling plugs (specifically cylinders 7 and 6 )
-prematurely burning up Cats (due to extra hydrocarbons "oil" burning through the system)
- low compression on cyl 6 & 7
-acted like it ran on 7 cylinders sometimes
- excessive oil consumption (1 quart every 112 miles on avg.)

my car had 39k miles at the time I had the heads done
symtoms began to show up as early as 29k miles

cars runs way stronger now and purrs like a kitten now that the heads are done

if it's a myth, then why did Ferrari change valve guide material in '98 ?

 

I posted this earlier, and since have seen/read a number of informative posts regarding owners specific experiences regarding the valve guide issue.

Would anyone please give me some guidance as to:

1) what are good/acceptable leakdown numbers
2) what are good/acceptable cylinder compression values

Any info would be greatly appreciated, as I am in the late stages of buying a 355 as I write this. I'm assuming that some of those who have dealt with this will know these answers, and be willing to share them?

Thanks very much in advance,

Joe