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Poll on Major Service Costs for Mondial in 2012

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by soucorp, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    #1 soucorp, Apr 25, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
    Lets hear some recent 2012 quotes on Ferrari Mondial Major Services Costs at the Ferrari Dealership?
    I'm guessing:
    $6000 - $8000 = 8/QV/3.2
    $8000 - $10000 = t
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Has anyone call to get a quote lately?
    It would be interesting to see an average trend sampling, I'm betting it almost always end up costing more than what they tell you from hidden surprises and the prices above are very conservative! I would assume the little Specialty Shops can do it 30% cheaper than the Dealership.

    This is what I would consider a 30k mile Major Service:
    -Replace Spark Plugs (NGK or Bosch)
    -Replace Timing Belts and Tensioner Bearings
    -Replace Cam Seals and Housing O-Rings
    -Replace Valve Cover Gaskets
    -Replace Distributor Seals and Housing Gaskets
    -Replace Distributor Cap Gaskets
    -Replace Cam End Cover Gaskets
    -Replace Air Filter
    -Replace Fuel Filter(s)
    -Replace A/C Belt
    -Replace Alternator / Water Pump Belt
    -Valve Adjustments
    -Replace Water Pump
    -Replace Coolant
    -Adjust Valves (where applicable)

    -Bleed Brake Lines
    -Change Oil and New Filter
    -Change Transaxle Gear Fluid
    -Torque Cam Journals
    -Torque Heads (check only)
    -Set Timing
    -Inspection/Service of Air Conditioning System (recharge "R12" extra on 308's/348's but "R134" is included on F355's)
    -Inspect all Lines (fuel, oil, water) and replace if necessary (extra charge for parts)
    -Check of Lambda System and Bosch Fuel Injection System (make adjustments if necessary)
    -Clean Engine Compartment
    -Pressurize Coolant System, check for leaks
    -Inspect CV Boots
    -Inspect Fuse Panel
    -Inspect Tires / Adj. Tire pressure
    -Inspect all Seals (shift shaft, main, timing gear assy)
    -Inspect Ignition Wires / Caps / Rotors
    -Inspect all Bulbs, Lights, Electrical Motors
    -Inspect Clutch Pedal play (adjustment setting if necessary)
    -Inspect all Suspension Bushings / Connections
    -Inspect all Exhaust Joints / Connections for leaks
    -Inspect Brake Pads and Discs
    -Inspect Wheel Bearings
     
  2. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ
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    My 2011 major was 12k, but the motor had issues that needed to be fixed. Also did new cams for more power.

    Art
     
  3. dailyferraridriver

    dailyferraridriver Formula 3
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    It's hard to do apples to apples in a case like that.

    Erik
     
  4. Valenzo

    Valenzo F1 Veteran

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    don't ask
     
  5. JoeZaff

    JoeZaff F1 Veteran
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    I don't know how you can do this properly because everyone's idea of a major is different, and every car's needs are different.

    a major service to some is a simple belt/bearing job, to me, it is a Ricambi major service kit plus water pump, plug wires,etc, etc..

    Beyond that, there all the things that need attention that are unique to the individual car. For example, one car may need new wires and injectors, another may not.

    It's just impossible to get a baseline until we can agree on what actually constitutes a major...and that could be a whole thread by itself!
     
  6. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

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    I'm going to come in on the low end. My guess based on nothing becasue I did my own work is $4000.00 to 5000.00 estimate for the listed items but no one will get out for less than 6 to 10K. Each time the lid is popped a minor age related restoration takes place.

    I think I spent near to 8K on parts for my service. But I figure I did about 15K worth of work/updates/restoration in the engine bay and periferals.

    Then the new top, tires and look over I think came in at about 3.5K-5K about a year after my service. I basically threw money at my shop and told them I wanted them to tell me that my car would "probably" make it cross country if nothing unforseen came up. They made that committment to me :D.

    As a side note I believe my shop recommended that I carry duct tape, electrical wiring and a schematic for the cross country trip. Those three things would get me out of the most likely binds. I brought them all and didn't need them, y'all know the story.
     
  7. JoeZaff

    JoeZaff F1 Veteran
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    Thanks for expanding your post. I still don't know if anyone can give you a real accurate answer, but I will say I disagree with your 30% differential.

    Dealer's vary, but my local dealership is VERY competitive with the independents in our area. In fact, they have been cheaper on more than one occasion and have done a superior job.

    For example, my dealer created a special tool to adjust the linkage on my mondial. It took him less than an hour to adjust the shifter mechanism, my independent quoted me a few hours to do the same job. My clutch job also would have been cheaper had I had the foresight to use them for the job back then.

    I have found a lot of my friends have gotten really burned by independents. They may charge $95.00/hr, but if it takes them three hours to do a job it takes your dealer to do in 1, that savings has been lost.

    Another thing most people may not know about is that Ferrari SPA and Ferrari NA are putting a lot of pressure on the dealer network to get back the business they have lost to the independents. Accordingly, you can usually negotiate a really fair price with your dealer to make the service more price competitive. Add to that the warranty that Ferrari puts on work performed at the dealer and for me its a no brainer.

    Of course, I'm lucky in that my dealer has at least three master techs and two of the best F-car mechanics in the world under one roof. If I lived in or near Colorado or California, I would go to Dave Helms or Brian Crall (Rifledriver) in a heart beat.

    For me, I rather have the job done right the first time. I've seen so many hack jobs, especially on Mondials by people who were a Penny wise, pound foolish. When I bring my Ferrari in, the first question I ask is what are the qualifications of the guy with the wrench, the last question I ask is how much.

    Just my .02
     
  8. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

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    I think a major w/ no extras (plug wires, clutch, AC work, halfshaft boots, water pump, etc) should be around $4,000, maybe slightly less.
    Speaking of water pump, is there any good reason to change a perfectly functioning water pump "just because you're in there"?
     
  9. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

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    By the way, how often should I change my cam belts?

    JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  10. JoeZaff

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    It depends on the car I suppose. On the Mondial 3.2, I recall it can be changed at any time without much difficulty, but if the pump is 5 years old or so, I would probably do it as a while you are in there type of thing.

    On the testarossa, it is definitely something you address while the engine is out, I imagine, but cannot confirm, that the same would be the case for the Mondial T.
     
  11. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

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  12. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    Hi Joe,
    The 30% difference was the quote I got from Ferrari of Washington vs. a Specialty Ferrari Shop quote for a Major Service on my 3.2. Of course everyone tries to give the best price scenario and by the time you get your car back, its gonna be much more...

    I think you are correct by saying it depends on the dealership and location.
    I also would agree with you that the smaller shops with limited mechanics tend to float the hours more and delivery time is as soon as the bottleneck and work slows down. The dealership I would say is more reliable in that aspect as they have more technicians and better tools/computers.

    Just like in life, everything is negotiable so whether you have your dealer do it or a small shop, as long as you are happy with the service and okay with the bill at the end, life is good.

    For me, I have personally seen too many idiots do a bad job on my cars when I take it in that in recent years, I have been doing the recommended maintenance myself. At least I know it will be done correctly and I only have me to blame if something happens. The caveat is as long as the maintenance is within my capabilities.
     
  13. JoeZaff

    JoeZaff F1 Veteran
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    It seems to be you have the right attitude. There are WAY to many mechanics working on these cars who have no business doing so. It is a serious pet peeve of mine. Unless you have a truly competent mechanic who you can trust nearby, you are probably better off doing it yourself.

    Personally, when my mechanic and service manager retire or leave, I will probably move on from Ferrari ownership. I don't have the time nor expertise to do the work myself, and I don't have the stomach to pay for a job and then wonder if its done right. The Ferrari I own now has been sold and serviced exclusively by my dealer for the last 25 years. I can't tell you the peace of mind it gives me to know everything has been done right.

    Troubleshooting a problem shouldn't have to begin with trying to figure out what the last moron may have screwed up under the bonnet. Unfortunately for many F-car owners, especially Mondial owners, that's where the trouble shooting usually starts.
     
  14. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #14 davehelms, Apr 26, 2012
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  15. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    #15 fastradio, Apr 26, 2012
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    After all, just what could a 30 year old car need? Parts = "The Ricambi Major Service Kit". You've got to be kidding me? That's barely scratching the surface. I see no mention of copious amounts of fluids, hoses, clamps, supplies and all the other stuff that has been worn out, clapped out, half-assed together by who knows who for who knows how long...So let's runs some numbers on a typical car.

    Major service "by the book": $7500
    Known "other" stuff based on shop experience with brand and age: Add $3500
    Add in "janitorial" stuff just so she doesn't burn to the ground: Add $2000, minimum
    And there is the "of course" while you're in there: Add many dollars now to the stuff that should have been done a long time a ago. Or add nothing now and a a few thousand dollars in a few months when that $300 water pump should have been rebuild, versus now having to pull the engine again. I know, I know...my estimate was a couple hundred dollars more than the expert you used and he said why do the pump since she's not leaking. Oh well, I've got a ride home.

    Final realistic price perhaps, but probably still low $13000 for a service. Was this what the owner specified? No. Was this what the car needed to establish some sort of reliability baseline? Yes, at minimum. So, with just so many unknowns, a quote of $13K to $20k just shouldn't be a surprise anymore. Speaking of janitorial work, check out these photos of semi-recent "repair" done by an "inexpensive" New England restoration shop. Between the quality of materials (none) and atrocious workmanship, it's truly amazing that the car made it here.

    Oh and that misfire that the shop had been chasing for years, maybe the wire set from 1978 and these ignition extenders might have needed replacement a bit sooner. Again, not in any "Major Service Kit"...
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  16. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    #16 soucorp, Apr 26, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
    All valid points here gentlemen! I think if you are going for perfection on a 20yr+ car, spending ~$20k seems to be where most end up. I think if the small shops do janitorial work, so will the dealership if you take your car in there and they will still love to make 30% more from you for it! LoL

    Like any insurance, do you want to replace everything that's old? IMO, a better and smarter way that's more cost effective would be to replace items that are high risk and scheduled maintenance items with an operating life while your in there, but the point is not to make it look factory clean & in new condition unless your restoring it for a museum. Just my .02 cents.

    I think the take home here is find a good place you trust that is fair, dependable, stick to their word, and won't break the bank. Or learn how to do it yourself to keep the cost and Ferrari ownership experience a happy one. (This should be another thread).

    Cheers!
     
  17. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    #17 soucorp, Apr 26, 2012
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    BTW, the best tool you can get is an OBD II scanner for 1996 and newer cars. My Sahara gave me a check engine light last week, plugged in my scanner, P0456 - Evaporative Emissions System - Small leak detected. I Google the code and found where it was on my Jeep, took it apart and sure enough the plastic valve was broken where it goes into the vacuum hose. I ordered a new OEM unit online for $20, dealer wanted $70 or $280 to fix it. Got the new unit and put it back in the car, reset the light and all is great again!

    This Tool is so cool, must have, I just wish my Ferrari had an OBD connector. Oh well !
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  18. Valenzo

    Valenzo F1 Veteran

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    #18 Valenzo, Apr 26, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
    Mike

    I think many Indy shops (Bradan) can do what you describe, if only you sit down with them first and lay out just what you want and expect. This will require alot of research and jotting down the must haves. But for many that love Mondials, truly LOVE the Mondial and think a complete restoration is not out of the question, an opportunity to update and to improve on the original design with new technology, like the gold connector kit, or Hill bearings, etc.. For this, SRI is a great place to send your cherished Mondial and expect to wait 6 months for Dave to perform the magic. Dave Helms has pioneered several upgrades for our cars and has a real passion for them. I chose Bradan and that shop has worked their asses off to get my car right it's just taken a little longer than I had planned.

    Or, you do it yourself and there's a ton of positives and an overall satisfaction that can't be beat.
     
  19. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    Ted, its cool to get your Mondi in tip top condition no doubt. Just find that happy medium so that you don't get frustrated and end up selling your car because its just too much of a maintenance and cost nightmare.

    I hear great things about Dave Helms and would take my car to his shop in a heart beat if he was near. Its all good here guys, if you can -do, if not get out of the way and leave it to the professionals! ;)

    Do it yourself definitely has an overall satisfaction that can't be beat for sure! I have learned so much about my Mondial since I bought it last year and have gained enough confidence to do most of the maintenance myself without hesitation.
     
  20. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    I am surely not going for perfection, this is simply a matter of Triage, a method to decide which one of the over looked evils will cause a certain and total demise.

    The correct way to do this is to forget about lumping this all together and calling it a Major Service, that is pure feel good fantasy. The upside of doing this on a "what is actually needed" basis, if it is done correctly ONCE, it will be decades before much of that work is needed again. Make a well thought out game plan, deal with everything that is actually NEEDED on a given car on a Triage basis, and in time this list gets quite short.

    Blindly follow the "Major Service" list posted earlier and you will be paying for it for the entire ownership duration.... bet on it! How do you know "what is needed"... take the thing apart, use common sense, knowledge gained by experience with the model and open your eyes. Following some list that was put together before the cars even saw the dealership show floor when new....... that is what others did in my photo example and it near turned a spectacular example into a parts car. Time for the owners to wise up on this, someone brings me a list of what they demand done in a major and I just look at them and ask Really?
     
  21. rob

    rob F1 Rookie

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    #21 rob, Apr 26, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
    It comes down to two things when owning these cars you either need some mechanical knowledge and aptitude to do the work yourself, or at least some of it, or a stash put away to pay someone to do it for you.
    In the list of things that are done in a major and its the same for other makes you will notice there are a lot of things that are inspected I counted 13 on the list posted here I wonder how much of the cost of a major at a Ferrari dealership goes towards inspecting these things.
    I would hope that if I brought my Ferrari in for an oil change they would automatically check a lot of these items specifically tires, brakes suspension, exhaust safety items.
    When I bring my S2000 in for an oil change I get an inspection sheet after every oil change and they go through just about every system on the car and let me know what is needed.
     
  22. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    I think starting from a baseline of things to check and replace come time is just the starting point. Like Dave said above, surely things need to be looked at, taken apart to see how bad it really is.

    My thing is, lets not walk in with an open check book, lets start with the basics and work our way up, either way its going to be expensive whether you do it yourself or pay a shop to do it -its a Ferrari! Budget for it, those freakin rear windows are a pain :):):)
     
  23. Valenzo

    Valenzo F1 Veteran

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    Mike,

    I think you're the perfect guy to do a documentary on this, call it the 'DIY Major' thread, in fact you should set up a paypal account for those who would like to either donate to the class or purchase the DVD once its done. Im all for giving back to knowledge bank.
     
  24. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    Trueism BUT.... you asked how much IT SHOULD COST.... For what I ask? Lump them all together as is most often done and you get what you get.
     
  25. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

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    LoL, great idea but there's alot more qualified folks on this board that has already done it!

    i.e. Birdman, Nino, Steve Magnusson, PV Dirk, Adamae82, and countless others who have contributed. And of course the professionals like Dave Helms & Bradan who are a wealth of knowledge in helping all of the DIY guys out there! In the end, we all come together and share a passion for these cars and I hope to meet you all at a C&C event some day!
     

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