Porsche. Dilution into mediocracy, but not Ferrari?

Actually with Porsche almost taking over VW I would have agreed with you. Now that VW has won, the rumor is the Cayenne and Panamera will live out their current cycle and then killed. And then they are looking into a CGT successor and a new, smaller, lighter car along the lines of the 356. I really hope they get their mojo back, although I have to admit I like the Panamera...just not sure it should be a Porsche.

The strange thing is it looks like they might follow Ferrari in keeping their essence after being taken over by a conglomerate. After the Fiat takeover, Ferrari has indeed expanded and produces more cars than ever, but no one can deny they still have the Ferrari soul...well maybe except for the California.

 

Ferrari had a much smarter approach and did not want to water down the race/sportscar image that went with his name....the 4 seat Ferraris never were as popular as the two seater and the evidence is still there today when looking at current values of Dino 308 GT4, Mondial, and 400 series cars...there was no way he would go 4 door like Porsche...just too risky.

....HOWEVER Enzo showed his ingenuity in producing a 4 door front wheel drive car with a 308 quattrovalvole through the Lancia Division of Fiat (Thema 8.32) rather than risk the public perception nightmare that Porsche has now placed upon themselves with their recent 4 door vehicles.

By the way, I have an 8.32 and it is the most underappreciated car on the planet...just ask anyone who has had the opportunity to drive one...they are the most amazing secret in the automotive world.


Beev

 

I'm not sure I agree with your premise. The 911 is still a fantastic sports GT. The Boxster and Cayman are great sports cars. Nothing mediocre about those. The "family" Porsches are very good -- if that's what you want. I don't want them, but that doesn't mean anything, because they are selling well.

Porsche has rarely competed directly with Ferrari. They have on specific homologation-type cars like the 904/906/908, 959 and Carerra GT. In general, though, the company's top cars have slotted just underneath Ferrari.

I've never purchased a new Porsche. I've driven them and twice couldn't justify the price difference between a 911 and a C5 Corvette. I've owned two other Porsches -- '70 911T and briefly a 944. Porsches have generally been comfortable, spacious cars (not the Boxster!)

Just offering an SUV and sedan doesn't detract from what the other cars offer.

 

Last I read, they were planning on releasing yet ANOTHER Porsche SUV--this time smaller than the Cayenne...

 

Have you driven a Panamera? Cayenne? If not, I suggest you do. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; but I'm of the opinion that these two are true driver's cars and will give many sports cars a run for their money on any track.. Why would you poo-poo a company that creates these types of vehicles for enthusiasts like us?

 

VW has tried to go up market before - witness the Phaeton, which ultimately spawned the Bentley Flying Spur.
With Porsche now firmly under their control, there is a clear three brand (German Brands ) strategy that gives VW a shot at a very broad market array, using similar technology and cross brand platform sharing. I don't doubt for one moment that they will leverage the Porsche brand as far as they can take it, which will include more Porsche variants, including a smaller SUV. It is clearly wishful thinking that they would downsize the brand and return it to its basic sports car roots. They now have a whole generation of upscale customers and they will follow the age old trading up plan, where young VW customers become middle aged Audi customers and a select group of those go on to become Porsche customers, for all of their automotive needs.

 

Very well said

 

I don't believe Porsche have 'watered down' at all; they have merely diversified from a business perspective. The GT3 variants, especially in RS form, are incredible to drive.

 

I was a Porsche purist. I had 2 couple of late 80's model turbos, and then I bought a 996. Boy was I disappointed. Not only did it drive "too soft" (not sure how else to explain it), but when I had to put $11K into a new motor at 53K miles, I was really disappointed.

I agree the brand is watered down, but not by the production of family cars. Unfortunately the need to make a profit made the cars housewife capable and much less fun. In my 89 turbo, my wife needed two feet to press in the clutch. It was one of the fastest and most capable cars on the road. Now they are content to produce mostly daily drivers.

Just my 2 cents.

 

What are Porsche's total sales in relation to Ferraris total sales?

Gross and net profit numbers?

 

FYI, up until the 330 series, over 1/2 of all Ferrari's had four seats and were much better sellers than their 2 seat brethren...

 

How quickly people forget... or wish to rewrite history.

 

I hate to admit it but the panamera is really nice. I agree overall though with the idea that Porsche has become a softer and watered down brand.

 

The Boxster and Cayman are real sports cars, although they need to be lightened up a bit (Boxster Spyder is going to be a step in the right direction).

But I do think the Cayenne and Panamera have diluted the brand. And the 996 was a travesty.

If you drive a 1973 or earlier 911, it's hard to believe it's the same model as the newer ones. A lot of the stuff we like about 308s -- the agility, immediacy and noise -- are evident in the early 911s (and 356s). Porsche have gradually dulled some of that sensory experience. I don't even think you could have a cell phone conversation or sip a latte in an early 911 in its powerband.

Exactly. Ferrari didn't edge into the production sports car market until the Boxer era. I realize we now think of Ferrari primarily for cars like the 308, 360, etc., but with the California, 599 and 612, I would still stay Ferrari are primarily a GT car builder.

Lotus would be a sports car maker (despite the Evora). Porsche, without the Cayenne and Panamera, could be contender...

 

All of the "sports cars" are being diluted. They have to follow their market, and very very few people could drive a true racing vehicle without harming themselves.

This isn't exactly new: Enzo refused to release a mid-engine V12 road car, because he felt that the average driver wouldn't be able to handle it. It was only on the "Dino" cars, with much more "manageable" smaller power plants, that he finally relented on production mid-engines.

Even today, car salesmen get really nervous about someone wringing out a mid-mill Ferrari.

Every time I see a 911, it looks like they tried to save weight by putting the engine on a trailer behind the car.

 

No doubt that newer 911s are berry berry different from the carburetted 911s. They are much softer, quieter, but also far more capable, comfortable, safe...they are faster, handle better.

We have to remember that sports cars were originally cars for people who didn't need basic ammenities -- like in most cases heaters and windows. By necessity and regulations, the line between GT and sports car has been blurred. Porsche started out making small displacement sports cars that weren't very fast at all -- basically a high-priced Miata of its day. High priced cars have to offer performance and luxury now.

As an automotive journalist and former professional brand and product marketer, I find it really hard to support the statement that adding a high performance sedan and extreme performance SUV to a line of coupes, convertibles and roadsters dillutes Porsche's performance brand image.

The 996 was doomed from an image standpoint from the starting gate. As the first water-cooled 911 it was going to be bashed. The Boxster nose was a bad call, but considering that BMW, VW, Audi, and Mercedes all utilized "corporate standard" fronts, it was understandable. The fact that it had some bad engine management foibles, now that's a different problem -- but then again, so did the Boxster. Also remember that the 996 far outsold the 993 and helped Porsche become the most profitable car company on the planet. (It would have stayed that way if not for the stupid failed VW takeover attempt.)

As for modern 911s being too soft -- have you driven a 599 GTB??? The car basically dives itself. You can fall asleep at 130mph as it shifts itself and isolates you from any seat-of-the-pants feeling of speed. It's not that it's a bad car, quite the contrary -- modern sports GT cars are so amazing that they're too damn good.

At the end of the day, I've made it very clear to more than a few automotive industry VIPs that they need to get away from a)making cars only to please their "purists", b)look good to company executives if the target demographic is vastly different (like the Big Three building retro pony cars that look good to 60year olds when the target is 22 year olds), and c)worrying if a car that will sell well and be profitable will offend the membership of marque ownership clubs.

 

Come on now give me a break, how many threads on here are about my bluetooth will not connect, and how many Ferrari's have barely 1000 miles a year on them, and the dash on the new 458 looks like a pinball machine, and Porsche, they now have heated and vented seats, and every creature comfort a Lexus has. This is not about the brands themselves, this is about the majority of people who drive them, and the fact that for the most part they want a car that looks like a sports car, but feels like a luxury car. That is the reason I have to take apart every modern car I buy and get rid of all the crap everyone else wants.

 

Ok, but how about in the LAST 40 years?

This ain't one of those "How quickly they forget" kind of issues.

Oh and which sells for more money now, the 50's and 60's two seaters, or their four seat brothers?

DM

 

For a thorough assessment of the 993 vs. the 996, read the 996 road test in the August 1998 issue of Excellence magazine. Additional contributions to the article came from Hurley Haywood.

Here are some points in the article that identify some of the major improvements made by Porsche in the new model as well as impressions of the testers.

"The 993 lacks the poise and balance of the new 996. And it's a lot less comfortable to drive. My head feels pressed against the glass of the old upright windshield, and the floor-mounted clutch and brake pedals preclude heel and toeing."

"The longer wheelbase (up 3") and widened track (up 2") of the 996 optimize the rear-engined platform. The quantum improvement from 993 to 996 far exceeds the wampum leap Porsche made from the Carrera 2 to the 993."

"The laden ground clearance of the 996 is 1" less than that of the 993, effectively lowering the new 911's center of gravity."

"The gearchange is so much better than anything Porsche has done before...."

"Significantly, the new 3.4 liter motor is not only 26 hp more powerful than the old one (despite being 200 cc smaller) but it is also 110 pounds lighter than the old lump."


It seems to me that Porsche and Ferrari (and all high end manufacturers) are, to some extent, responding to pressures from the lower end of the market to distinguish their cars from their "lesser bretheren." Why else would the high line cars adopt such features as "rain sensor" automatic windshield wipers, automatic dimming rear view mirrors, and motorized, folding side view mirrors?

Overall, I agree with the observation(s) that sports cars like Porsche and Ferrari have gotten a bit soft, and seem more like GT cars rather than sports cars. Notwithstanding that statement, the performance of the newer Porsches and Ferraris is stunning.

 

Lambo may build another SUV or another sedan and AM is building another sedan but F never will

 

Pininfarina built a show/concept Ferrari sedan for the 1980 Turin show called the Pinin. After seeing the car, Enzo Ferrari discussed seriously with Pininfarina about putting the car into limited special production, but it never came to fruition. Had Enzo been able to make a solid business case for it, it would have happened.

 

What does resale value have to do with it? Your initial post said the 4 seat was "never" as popular as the 2 seat cars, yet the 4 seat cars were more popular in the 50s and 60s. It was only after the poseurs wanting garage jewelry became the primary buyer of Ferrari's did the impractical 2 seat cars become more popular. Before that, racers bought 2 seat cars and the wealthy enthusiast bought the practical 4 seat car and actually drove them often.

 

A little off the point but... for pure driving enjoyment, I would take a 997 GT3 RS over an F430.

 

Porsche never had a stranglehold on, nor built, a single road going "supercar".........until the Carrera GT came along.

Everything else beforehand was either a specific purpose built race car (904, 908, 917, 935, 956, 962, RS Spyder, etc)..........or a street legal sports car with the obvious production of homologation variants for sanctioned and legal class racing that every other manufacturer produces at some point in time.

Insofar as "dilution" is concerned, the Boxster, Cayenne and CGT were all designed and produced at the same time..........and there is nothing wrong with a Boxster for it is was a tremendous sales success as well as a fabulous mid engined sports car, nor is there anything wrong with a Cayenne in the realm of the SUV world, as it has also been a roaring sales success that others have a strong desire to imitate.

Don't need to say anything about CGT's either.........they perform like an Enzo for 1/3 the price and don't have as many issues. In Europe there is a guy with over 100,000 KM on his..........furthermore, the number of P-cars with high mileage outnumbers the amount of F-cars by a ratio of 20 x 1.....not due to sheer production volume, but due to customers being willing and able to drive them hard for extended periods without fear of major catastrophic failure and expense. When I pay double or triple for less performance and reliability, that is the true definition of mediocre.

Bring on dilution.......I love it. Ferrari could use some of this itself, as opposed to using customers as BETA testers for their somewhat mediocre low volume products........you own a 355 right, so did I ?

I like Ferrari's......I also am realistic about what they are.