Post Cat Delete Tuning Advice Needed | FerrariChat

Post Cat Delete Tuning Advice Needed

Discussion in '308/328' started by chasjen, May 29, 2021.

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  1. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    Oct 21, 2013
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    Dublin, Ohio
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    Charlie
    Hello All. I just installed a test pipe on my 85 QV (US). The car has been off the road for the past few months. The air injection system has been deleted. I also changed all the rubber air and fuel lines. The gas tanks were also cleaned.

    Anyway, my problem.....Got the car on the road today. Starts with a little rough idle @800 and after few minutes settles into smooth idle @1100-1200. Runs great. Great throttle response. However, once warm the car inconsistently stalls when coming to a stop. Starts right up and drives fine. Ideas?

    Another question, what single tool ($200-400) would you recommend for tuning the car? I just recently noticed a large wood screw was placed the mixture adjustment port on the FD.

    Sorry for long post. Love the cat delete.
    Thanks
     
  2. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Not sure if any single tool. But I'd recommend a CIS pressure gauge kit and a 5-gas analyzer, the last one will be pricey but it'll let you know exactly how combustion is going. A good vacuum gauge doesn't hurt.

    CIS runs on pressure deferentials so it's critical that they are correct. Beyond that there's no specialty tools. WSM and the Bosch CIS Ferrari booklet.. good to go.
     
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  3. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    I have the book and pressure tester. Can you recommend a 5 gas analyzer?
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #4 Steve Magnusson, May 29, 2021
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
    One readily available tool is your finger ;). On a US 1985, the first thing you should do is confirm/deny if the frequency valve is vibrating when the engine is running -- it should -- warm or cold. Your report of a low and lumpy cold RPM may be an indication that it isn't operating and someone (wrongly) tweaked it up warm with it not working -- so easy to rule this in or out.

    Also, do you still have the O2 sensor mounted in the exhaust stream?
     
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  5. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    Once the control pressures are set and if the fuel distributor unit is properly set (even flow from all ports), then setting the mixture is down to the single screw. For that, I use an Innovate LM-2 wideband reader, with a wideband O2 sensor stuffed in each exhaust side. Image Unavailable, Please Login

    In previous years I datalogged through the Innovate unit to watch the air-fuel ratios at cruising steady-state and accelerating, aiming for steady state to be just under 14.7:1 (Green box #1) and under full throttle acceleration to be around 12:1 (green box #2)

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    This past winter I installed a new ignition system (Electromotive XDI from Nicks Forza Ferrari), as the original Digiplex boxes were not functioning properly, so afterwards I checked the A/F ratios quickly by hooking up the two O2 sensors in the tail pipes and holding rpm at a steady 4,000 rpm or so, simulating steady cruise rpm. A/F ratios on both sensors were about 14.6:1 that way. The LM-2 isn't good for reading A/F ratios at idle rpms because there's not enough exhaust flow to ensure the sensors in the exhaust tips are reading exhaust gas exclusively, there will be air mixed with the exhaust gas in the exhaust tips at idle speeds. At higher rpm, there's enough exhaust gas flow to ensure that the O2 sensors are only reading exhaust gas.

    A single O2 sensor kit for the Innovate LM-2 unit is $479, the dual sensor complete kit is $669: https://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm2.php

    Cheers,
    Gordon
     
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  6. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    Oct 21, 2013
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    I have confirmed the FV is working. Not sure it was working prior to my recent work on the car. I've read how the FV obviously vibrates and buzzes. When I uplug the blue plug from the FD and turn the key on (not to start the engine), it clearly buzzes and vibrates. Once engine started, I can't hear the FV and can barely feel the vibration (it is vibrating). I assume this is normal. Is it possible the FV is intermittently working? I've confirmed 12V at the FV plug. I suspect the FD mixture has tweaked given the wood screw someone stuck in there.

    The low lumpy idle only lasts a few minutes. I have the CSI disconnected. The WUR was recently rebuilt at Flowtech. The O2 sensor is installed in the test pipe. Once warm the car runs really well. The new problem is the stalling when coming to a stop once warm, although I have driven a short time since getting back on the road Friday.

    Thanks for your help
     
  7. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #7 Steve Magnusson, May 30, 2021
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
    All that sounds good for the FV.

    Do you have a specific reason for disconnecting the CSI? Have you tried doing a cold start with it connected?

    One other thing to check here is that the throttle idle microswitch is working correctly. When the throttle is released to idle, this idle microswitch switch (when closed) "tells" the injection ECU to limit the excursions of the A/F ratio that the FV is doing -- with such little airflow in a hard deceleration condition, the system would undershoot to too lean (if still in the "normal" operating closed-loop mode). Pin 2 of the throttle microswitch should be electrically connected to pin 18 of the throttle microswitch when the throttle is at idle:

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    Do you have a copy of Service Bulletin 10-13 (Ferrari's written explanation of how their K-Jet with Lambda works)? If not, you can get a copy here:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/hk5gupwre678a5q/Service Bulletin 10-13 Bosch K-Jet with Lambda.pdf?dl=0
     
  8. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    Wow! Lot of info there. Thanks.

    The CSI was disconnected when I got the car. I'll experiment a little more and check back. Have a good Memorial Day.
     
  9. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    I finally got TPS off. I’m only getting over limit (OL) on any measurement. This would indicate a bad TPS?
     
  10. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    So probably dumb question. I purchased a NOS TPS. I have not installed it. It has a rattle like something is loose inside. When I measure between 18 and 2, I still get OL. Do I have to install it in order to measure the resistance?
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    No, but you need to hold the housing and rotate the "D" center shaft section until you hear the "click" of the idle microswitch -- then measure the 2-to-18 resistance.
     
  12. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    Thanks! Got it. The new one for sure works.
     
  13. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    ***Update*** Removed AAV and unbelievably, the PO had plugged it. Verified that it worked and reinstalled. For the first time since I got the 2 yrs ago, it started and immediately revved to @2500 rpm! It stayed there for about 3 min then settled to idle about 1000 rpm. Installed and set new TPS. Car drives good and doesn't stall at stops!

    I drove it until fully warmed up. Shut if off for 10-15 min and restarted. It ran up to 2500 rpm but dropped back down to 1000 rpm after a minute (less than cold start). Is this normal behavior when the car is fully warmed up?
     
  14. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    Sorry for multiple posts. What should be the normal behavior at cold and warm starts for my car?
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    No. If you're sure that the FV and idle throttle microswitch are working correctly, you're up to confirming/denying if the mixture and airflows are correct. Things you can check:

    1. At warm 1000 RPM idle, measure the voltage on the unplugged single wire of the O2 sensor = should be something like ~0.7V DC relative to ground (i.e., a little richer than stoichiometric). As you turn the mixture screw, you should be able to "swing" the voltage from ~0.2V (lean CCW) to ~0.9V (rich CW). These are very small adjustments -- 1/8 turn is a huge adjustment. And the access hole to the adjustment screw has to be blocked (like with a fingertip) to get a valid reading (i.e., you'd make an adjustment, remove the tool, block the access hole, then take the voltage reading).

    2. At warm 1000 RPM idle, fully close the air bypass screw (note how many turns it was open) = the idle RPM should drop to something like 600~700 RPM. If it does, just reopen it to give the 1000 RPM warm idle again. If the idle RPM doesn't drop, the throttle plate at idle is too open. If it drops more than that, the throttle plate at idle is too closed.

    3. At warm 1000 RPM idle with the O2 sensor plugged in, the voltage on the single wire should be "wandering" every couple/few seconds between the boundaries of ~0.2V (lean) to ~0.8V (rich) if things are working correctly closed-loop.

    Good Hunting!
     
  16. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
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    What exactly does this mean??????
     
  17. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

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    It means somebody lost the small screw that seals the adjustment access port and just grabbed something out of a drawer. Pretty cheesy workmanship :mad:
     
  18. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    The O2 sensor voltage didn't vary as expected. It was steady at 0.52 V. The car idling at @950 rpm and fully warmed up. Does this mean the O2 sensor is bad?
    FYI- I used an external tach. The in dash tach is way off @300 rpm.
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    It means that the car is not running closed-loop at warm idle (as it should). What does the voltage measure (on the O2 sensor side) when you unplug the O2 sensor (just unplug the single wire, not the 2-pin heater cable)?
     
  20. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    That voltage was measured from the unplugged single wire.
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    On the O2 sensor side or on the injection ECU side?

    Also, what happens to the voltage when you plug it in? Does it "wander" as it should between rich and lean?
     
  22. chasjen

    chasjen Karting
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    O2 sensor side. I didn’t measure at the ECU side. Plugging the mixture hoke made a huge difference. The car is really running good at this point. It’s idling strong. I haven’t been able to take it out for a test drive since I’m rebuilding the brake calipers.
     
  23. ferrariowner

    ferrariowner Formula 3

    Feb 21, 2014
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    The adjustment screw hole must be sealed to properly adjust the idle mixture.
     

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