No, this is not a question about how fast they go up or down I do have an odd problem though, they work fine when the key is in the off position, but neither one works when the key is in the run position. It's a little problematic to stop the car to move the windows!! I've changed the relay and looked at schematics but can't see any obvious causes. Anyone have an idea??? THANKS!!!
That is a new one! First thing that I would do is confirm that the "relay for windows motor, G" is of the correct type -- it should be a ...113 relay (not a ...101). If that seems OK, give a shout, and I'll descrbe some voltmeter/jumper tests that you can do at the (unplugged) relay G socket to investigate.
Please forgive my ignorance, but I am not familiar with the 113 and 101 identifiers. Does this refer to one having a diode and one not?. Thanks for the help!!
Agreed, not knowing which 3x8 this is (other than his screen name) all I could do is look at my (1980 GTSi) functionals and it appears his window relay is incorrect. Its supposed to be a normally OPEN type relay. Unless someone has monkeyed with his wiring, I'd have to say he has the wrong type relay. If it is the correct relay then someone has swapped the wire at the 87 contact for 87a. Mark, did they ever work right? Rick
It's a 75 GT4, and yes, they worked great until the other day when they quit all together. After thinking about your comments, I am pretty sure it's the wrong type relay. I'll swap it out tonight with another and see. Thanks again for the input
No, I'm just using shorthand instead of writing out the whole 10-digit Bosch PN that is stamped into the relay's metal case for each type. The ...113 relay has terminals 30, 85, 86, 87, and 87. When 0V is applied to terminals 85 and 86 = terminal 30 is isolated, and terminal 87 is connected to the other terminal 87. When +12V is applied to terminals 85 and 86 = terminal 30, terminal 87, and the other terminal 87 are all connected together. The schematic for ...113 looks like this: Image Unavailable, Please Login The ...101 relay has terminals 30, 85, 86, 87, and 87a When 0V is applied to terminals 85 and 86 = terminal 30 is connected to terminal 87a, and terminal 87 is isolated. When +12V is applied to terminals 85 and 86 = terminal 30 is connected to terminal 87, and the terminal 87a is isolated. The schematic for ...101 looks like this: Image Unavailable, Please Login
Well, I am pretty embarrassed but thankful for the education I received on relays today. An incorrect relay was causing the problem. On initial glance it looked right, felt right, had the right number of pins, and even the schematic on the cover looked right when I installed it. However, it had one small difference that was hard to see without looking very close at the pin numbers as Steve pointed out. Thank you for the info guys !!!!
Close but one important correction. The first relay depicted above is actually the 006 relay. The 113 has only one 87 contact and is shown below. The double normally open 87-87 relay Bosch #xx006 is used in the main headlight and cold start relay circuits for 3x8 cars. More complex circuits such as the lift motor circuits require the dual contact 87-87a Bosch #xx101 having both normally open and normally closed contacts. Whereas the typical single contact relay circuits such as the windows and fan motors use the Bosch #xx113. One can use the #xx006 relays when hard up (the dog ate them) without ill consequences. Bosch had several variations of each relay, the xx numbers, to designate things such as metal or plastic case and resistor or diode coil spike suppression. Diode or resistor option is not needed in 3x8 cars and using diode supression relays can cause problems if Ferrari didn't wire the socket to make the relay happy. Resistor or zener is ok. Easy remember relay pinouts regardless of relay type - 85 & 86 are the coil and polarity is only important if diodes are used. Armature pin is always 30. NO contact is always 87. Normally closed is always 87a. There are rare relay forms using 87b. Also rare are some older Bosch relays for 1970 era Ferrari's where the coil is internally connected to the armature. _________________________ http://www.ferrari308gtbi.com/ Image Unavailable, Please Login
No reason the be embarassed... welcome to the club! That's an oversight you won't make again. The Bosch relays of that format look pretty much the same but there many internal variants. When one goes flaky I like to replace them with the Hella equivalents from their "icecube" series. While physically the same, the Hellas have better internal components and are usually rated at 40amp. Most of the Bosch are 30amp. Just a little insurance that is nice to have when you know there are LUCAS (dark lord of auto electrics) components lurking elsewhere in the system... plus the Hellas have a mounting tab that makes them much easier to pull when you are troubleshooting. Rick
You're not looking at the schematic closely enough Paul, the ...006 relay schematic looks like this, and the "other" terminal is 87b (not 87): Image Unavailable, Please Login There may be other Bosch relays like the ...113 that physically only have one 87 terminal, but every ...113 relay used on the F that I've owned physically have two 87 terminals that are always connected together (regardless of what's happening at 85-86).
Glad that you got it sorted. The windows not working when the key is "on" certainly can be caused by a bad fuseblock, but there is no conceivable fuseblock problem that could cause the windows to work when the key is "off" (so it had to be something like the wrong relay, or some strange/poor rewiring, or an evil spirit ).
