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Pre-GPF 812...when?

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso/F12/812S' started by Bobby_P, Oct 14, 2020.

  1. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    2018? Not sure I follow you. Was the car specced and ordered in 2018, but went Red 10 after the August holliday 2020? If so, I would imagine it would be considered an MY 2021 car with a 2021 VIN. Cars that enter production past week 23 or 27, can't remember which, are considered the following model year. But at any rate, I highly doubt they would pull a car from the line just to do a special engine install. Everything is set upbfor the GPF platform so cannot see a non-GPF car happening at this stage.

    Regular 2018 cars delivered in 2018/2019 are all without GPF.

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  3. U answered perfectly!


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  4. KenU

    KenU Formula Junior

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    Correct
     
  5. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    Any 812SF coming tobthe states that are MY 2021 cars will be GPF. No not many 2020 812's that went to the states were GPF cars, but then again not many 2020 812SF cars went to the states. The 812 GTS entered full production as of August and you can be sure that all 812's no matter the type, after August will be GPF cars. There is always a transition where new cars such as the early GTS delivered in Europe etc. were produced somewhat off the line as the line was set up for non-GPF cars. But after the line went full GTS the line was set up for GPF cars. Ferrari has no interest in pulling a few US cars just so they don't get GPF. That would only cost money and cause delays. They are in this to make money, not to please a few who would not take delivery of a GPF car. In the eyes of Ferrari the car is sold and done. From this point on, it is all about getting it off the line as quickly as possible.

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  6. gliazzurri

    gliazzurri Karting

    Jun 11, 2016
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    I agree that 2021 vehicles will have the GPF (either SF or GTS). However the point previously made was that many cars already in the US had the GPF, which can not be true because of 1.) 2020 812 SF and earlier years that were made for the US never had the GPF (and cars made even through start of August were listed as 2020 models) and 2.) hardly any 2021 vehicles have made it to the US.
     
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  8. racerdj

    racerdj F1 Veteran
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    F152DB 2P V12 EURO6D GPF EU AD This is what a European Owner 812 ordered car posted from their MODIS.
    This is from my MODIS F152CB 2P V12 USA ADAS MY20. Mine was Red 10 in mid January and the car was finished in early March. There have been a few 812's here in the USA delivered after mine without the GPF. On a side note, I heard the Monza and it had GPF and the sound was altered but not as much as the F-8. It still sounded quite good.
     
  9. So for those that have GPF is the solution as “simple” as a full exhaust replacement to make it non gpf or not?


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  10. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    There is no GPF delete at this point.
    Ferrari is apparently playing around with exhaust systems, and it all seems to work okay. The GTS I heard without centre resonators and straight through when flaps open, was louder and more pissed off than the stock non-GPF 812SF next to it.

    More and more are reporting good results as their GPF cars burn in, and Karl on here, seems to be properly chuffed with his after reverting back to stock centre section with resonators and Novi box. It might also be the case that you can in fact decat but keep the GPF, and that will probably put the noise level somewhere in the realm of a non-GPF car with only sport cats and straight pipes. While GPF is a bit of a drag, you need to remember that the GPF alone has less resistance on the exhaust than stock cats. So like I have said before, hold your horses on the panic, it seems to turn out okay somehow. Will GPF alone be as loud as a fully straight piped car? No, but a fully straight piped 812 will be completely useless for 95% or more.

    People always talk about how cool a straight piped 812 is, but how many actually go that route? Very few, and reality is that not that many have heard a fully u corked 812. Is it cool? Yes, but it is so loud that you can't take it anywhere without getting pulled over or get into alterations. Yes if you drive your car for special occassions a few tj.es oer season, fine, but if you actually like to drive, track, roadtrip etc. forget it. When all is said and done, I think most will find some kind of happy medium just like they did with the non-GPF cars. Hell, just throwing sport cats on a GPF car will put it really close to a sport catted non-GPF car if done right. This is what is probably possible down the line, and while, and while a select few actually will want it fully straight, most won't need to worry about GPF-deletes, as other and less intrusive alternatives are available.

    We'll see. I thing we're all goi g to be fine.

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  11. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    Hmmm. I think that last post of mine show a few signs of walking and typing. Life on the move:)

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  13. junc

    junc Formula Junior
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  14. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    #36 JTSE30, Oct 19, 2020 at 11:56 AM
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020 at 12:07 PM
    GPF is still a disaster on many levels.

    Regarding above in red highlight, the GPFs are (apparently) a 4-way catalyst design, so the catalysts remain, the GPF is simply integrated into each cat

    next, addition of the GPF into the cats reduced power, the factory had to re-work the engine to product enough power to compensate (this has been directly noted by MHL, Chief Engineer at Ferrari)

    The GPF robs power by creating additional resistance, adding "back pressure" to the engine, which is not good for the motor. Most manufacturers do nothing to overcome, BMW, MB, Ford, etc, all their pre-GPF and post-GPF versions of the same car have reduced power, typical loss is 15-25PS/HP, it's nice that Ferrari cares enough to have made up the difference

    so, please know the statement regarding "less resistance" is fully discredited

    ==

    next:

    GPF adds additional heat soak to the engine compartment (unclear if Ferrari provided additional cooling); it adds the possibility for the engine to be run lean to increase exhaust temperatures to regenerate (burn off accumulated particulate matter); it removes the higher frequencies from being heard at top of the rpm range (F8 has same issue, noted by Matt Farah, after 5K rpm the engine sound does not change)

    a number of new CELs are added, I do not have Ferrari's list but here's a link to Toyota's
    https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/19-09-10_faq_gpf_eng.htm

    if/when GPFs fail, they must both be replaced and in the 812GTS the parts alone will likely exceed 10K, thankfully there is a warranty

    There is no 'upside' to having GPFs, zero, the 812 exhaust is already abundantly "clean" requiring 28,000 miles of driving to emit 1 ounce of particulate...per California testing (CARB) (or 1000 miles of driving to emit 1 gram)

    see page 3:

    https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2019/ferrari_pc_a0400098_6d3-6d5_u3-125.pdf
     
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  15. KarlA69

    KarlA69 Formula Junior

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    As you say, the engine has been re-tuned / ECU edited to account for the GPF. I have a GTS with GPF and while it sounds good, I do miss that scream which the 812 SF has above 5k. As such, I am open to considering GPF removal at some stage. I do worry though that with the above mentioned changes Ferrari has had to make, will removing the GPF cause engine issues / reduce reliability? Clearly, removing a GPF is not as simple as removing cats / moving to high flow cats, the latter of which does not seem to cause any engine issues. Maybe someone more technical than me can explain the risks around GPF removal?

    I guess GPF (and defeat devices) are fairly new so maybe we don't yet know the long term impact on an engine of removing GPF??
     
  16. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    Well, this thread is about pre-GPF 812s...of course, no GPF concern with those.

    Unfortunately the EU (the governing entity mandating emissions regulations that require fitment of GPF devices on GDI engines such as any by Ferrari) is increasing the difficulty level to enforce manufacturers have built-in safeguards to ensure the GPF does not go missing (this includes the UK too, unfortunately).

    As such, I am confident the factory will never have an approved GPF defeat system, so, only 3rd parties and then in the EU regulations exist and are increasing to punish any one attempting to modify the stock exhaust in any way that changes noise or emissions emitted...

    At present the only GPF defeat devices I have seen for Ferrari's utilizes an OBD2 port plug-in whose purpose is to hide CEL codes from the ECUs (and then actual removal of GPF devices) if you ever do remove them, they are quite valuable (more than 4000£ each) so do store them.

    Actually removal of GPF/Catalysts will provide some relief to the engine by removing that backpressure, but you do need some backpressure, anyway, we'll see if any great options ever occur
     
  17. wrs

    wrs F1 Veteran
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    Seems to me that removal of the gpf will be costly and not simple like a cat delete. I think if you have the GPF equipped car you are just going to have to live with it. I wonder how many new cars imported to the US have the GPF now? All of the imports?
     
  18. fordgt2006

    fordgt2006 Karting
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    Excellent review of the GPF and why it’s a Disaster. I am Thankful my Superfast is a 2018.
     
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  19. Dubaicity

    Dubaicity Karting

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    Hmm I'm still wondering why they could sell any of the 812 GTS because they are equipped with the Antichrist of the ICE...
    Compared to the turbo engines the GPF sound is paradise, isn't it?

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  20. Tommy Boy

    Tommy Boy Rookie

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    Listen to the GTS at high revs - and your ears confirm it's a disaster.
     
  21. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    And yet I think it will be brilliant to drive. Have you heard a GTS with the straight piped centre section? Not what I would call a disaster.

    So far the GTS has not shown any mechanical problems, and it looks like the sound is good with the straight piped centre section.

    How many of you that are complaining have actually ordered or even heard a GTS?

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  22. ForeverCar

    ForeverCar Karting

    Jan 20, 2017
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    A curious data point. A new 812 Superfast for the USA showed up recently. I don’t know the build date. The build sheet has,
    Order date: Oct 2 2020
    Chassis number: 257243
    Engine code: F152CB 2P V12 USA ADAS MY20

    I didn’t see any mesh “screens” looking at the tail pipes (Yes, one wouldn’t see the GPFs from that far back. I recall a post claiming GPF equipped cars has mesh screens visible in the tail pipes. I speculate that’s to prevent projectile in case GPF structure fails). I haven’t had a chance to see under the hood yet to look for extra hoses going into the intake tracts.

    Maybe USA Superfast produced after GTS production started doesn’t have GPFs after all?
     
  23. Tommy Boy

    Tommy Boy Rookie

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    I don't know "straight-pipe" - what does that mean?

    The car is "brilliant to drive" as you say, but that is not a surprise. It is an 812.

    I canceled my GTS order after driving dealer car. Beautiful car, but go through the gear box and the sound is awful compared to the 812 SF. I assume it is because of GPF.
     
  24. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    this is the car:

    https://www.ferrariofseattle.com/new-Seattle-2020-Ferrari-812+Superfast-Base-ZFF83CLA7L0257243

    It is a MY2020 car, no MY2020 812SF for USA have GPF.

    It was not "ordered" October 2 2020 (it takes a minimum of 2.5-3 months from initial production of an order to arrival in USA)

    Based on another thread referring to
    ZFF83CLA0L0257794
    with a build date of June 18 2020

    It is likely 257243 was built prior to then, probably May 2020, look at the build date is on the driver side door frame, have dealer take a picture...
     
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  25. KarlA69

    KarlA69 Formula Junior

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    There is lots of commentary on here about the comparison of the sounds. I am an 812 and GTS owner so feel reasonably well qualified to comment. The sounds are undoubtedly different and I do miss the scream at higher revs of the SF. The GTS has more of a bassy rumble and isn’t quiet as loud, but is still decent and sounds better than 99% of other cars. I was also worried about it but definitely would not describe it as “awful”

    One important point though - the GTS sounds materially better after 1000km or so of use. If possible I’d encourage people to listen to a GTS that has decent mileage on it before making up their mind.
     
  26. Tommy Boy

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    If you own both SF and GTS, then OK. But I will not own both.

    I have SF, had a deposit to trade into GTS, drove a GTS will 2,000+ miles, and the sound is completely different. Definitely not "awful" (as I previously said), and yes, better sound than 99% of all other cars. But not in same league as SF, which to me is the best sounding engine ever.

    Dealer will transfer my GTS deposit to another model.
     
  27. ForeverCar

    ForeverCar Karting

    Jan 20, 2017
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    I was referring to the “order date” as shown on a PDF that I saw (likely ordered from stock or something like that).

    I stopped by to take a closer look. Do you have a crystal ball? :D May 2020 is indeed the production month on the door.

    Now I’m a bit torn. Buying this one now gives me the option of choosing between a non-GPF vs GPF but spec’ed the way I want.

    If there’s a good way (low risk of damage or issue) to eliminate GPFs and maximize the high rpm scream, I’d like to explore that.
     

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