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Prisoners Dilemma

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by open roads, Jan 8, 2009.

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  1. open roads

    open roads F1 Rookie

    Jan 28, 2007
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    #1 open roads, Jan 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2009
    Has anyone had any real life experience with Prisoners Dilemma? I have in college in a harmless educational, learn the lesson sort of way. Now I think there is a chance it will be done in a real world environment and the stuff will hit the fan.
     
  2. Ike

    Ike F1 Rookie

    Nov 4, 2003
    3,543
    Does this mean you are going to prison?
     
  3. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
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    Defined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

    This is somewhat the current situation we are all in regarding the lack of consumer confidence driving the economy to a standstill.
    The more we "defect" and stop spending, the more we hurt ourselves collectively.
    Yet, the level of "hurt" we experience is offset by the small amount of cash we hang on to.
     
  4. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
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    No matter what the consequences are, if you want to win, you'll have to bend the other person/ people to your will and make it absolute. Say you pulled a bank job with another person and were both brought in for questioning. You should have laid down the law when it comes to squealing, make sure they know that everything will be fine if no one says a word, the police can only hold us for so long if we don't say anything bla bla bla. Whatever it takes, let him know that by keeping his mouth shut, he keeps the loot, hie freedom and his life. If he says one word he loses everything and you'll expect the same from him if you talk.

    Make sure after you bend him as much as you can, you think things over for yourself, every possibility imaginable. What if you sing like a bird, clam up and stay silent, turn on your partner putting all on him etc. Then after that take the best course of action for you.

    Hanging someone out to dry is a lot more fun than being the one drying in the sun.
     
  5. open roads

    open roads F1 Rookie

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    Ha ha ha ha. No nothing like that.

    This is the set up. ... Three young people. One steals some sentimental stuff from three victims (I am one and we are all pretty pissed). No real value but sentimental. We know that all three suspects have knowledge and we know which suspect did it. But they are hanging tough so far. But being kids they have no idea of what a prisoners dilema is. Do you?

    I just want the kids to learn the lesson well.


    Plus I want my stuff back.
     
  6. open roads

    open roads F1 Rookie

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    One of the things taken ( not a sentimental thing) was a $4.00 flashlight. This isn't what you would call a superthief.

    Another thing taken were size 12 boots. One of the three wears 12s.

    More like super dumb.
     
  7. QT3141

    QT3141 Formula Junior

    Jul 24, 2006
    609
    #7 QT3141, Jan 8, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
    Read "The Art of Strategy" by Dixit and Nalebuff. I'm in the middle of it. Very nice layman's intro to game theory.

    The Prisoners' Dilemma (most people would put the apostrophe before the 's' but this is semantically incorrect) is the simplest game illustrating that the Nash equilibrium does not necessarily lead to the best outcome for all parties.

    All you have to do is to approach each of the 'witness' kids separately, promising confidentiality. Give them a deadline before reporting to police. Sweeten the deal by promising some sort of reward for cooperating before the others do. Emphasise that failure to cooperate when one or more of the others do will mean nasty consequences, legal or otherwise (tell on them to their family, etc.) Also hint that one of the others is close to breaking, and it would be advantageous for him to spill the beans first, for obvious reasons.

    To turn the screws even more, you can hint to one of the 'witness' kids that one of the others is implicating him in the actual crime. You can then play 'good cop' by reassuring him that you're fairly certain he didn't do it, but that's not how the police are going to view it. In other words, his silence is going to actively cost him because he becomes 'it' by default. Most people can't take this sort of pressure, coupled with the moral outrage that the actual criminal is trying to make them a patsy.

    For the guy you strongly suspect, you can make the much more direct offer akin to plea bargaining - if he admits to the minor theft, you will not press charges, provided he does some sort of informal community service, e.g. your chores for a month :)D). But if he hangs tough and one of the other sells him out (hint that this is really about to happen), you will throw the book at him and he will have a lifelong juvenile record.

    Etc...you can figure out the details.
     
  8. open roads

    open roads F1 Rookie

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    Thanks for the reading. I'll pick it up.

    I think if we do this right, we can get three confessions of whatever role they each played. I think we tell them that we know the truth and if they fess up then their disciplinary action is that they learned the lesson well and there is no disciplinary action. They will have proved to my satisfactionn that they have learned and are the exception rather than "just another theif".

    If we tell them that it is our expectation that each of them will be truthfull, and that there is no severe penalty. Rather they will have earned our respect actually. Unless they lie and one or two of them are good men. Then they are in for it.

    If simultaneously we tell them that clamming up doesn't work. We tell them that we take that as guilty because we know they have info that they are not revealing. Not co-operting and confirming known facts is the same as guilty to us.

    Again, we tell each that we expect they all are absolutely truthful and they will in effect. Let them know that we expect that they all win.
     
  9. MikeMac

    MikeMac Formula Junior

    Feb 26, 2008
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    Or super smart if one of the others is framing him. Is there an inquisitor's dilemma as well? :D
     
  10. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    That happened to three of us in High School - during P.E., our lockers got busted into by three dimwits - 250 bucks, total, most of which was mine. Let's just say that later, much later, when we were but long-*forgotten*, it cost each of the dimwits a hell of a lot more in prized possessions.
     
  11. Darolls

    Darolls F1 Veteran
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    Revenge is not a virtue, please tell us you're only joking!

    Sparky
     
  12. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Revenge is a virtue.

    I'm not joking.
     
  13. Darolls

    Darolls F1 Veteran
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    Sure it is, but on the negative side.
     
  14. Ferraribot

    Ferraribot F1 Veteran

    sometimes it's warranted though.
     
  15. open roads

    open roads F1 Rookie

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    I was wondering if any one had anything to gain. I had maybe one doubt. That was taken care of when I saw how upset the guy genuinely was. He had his grandfather's hunting knife taken. He carries it to camp as a sentimental piece and no longer uses it. He also has nothing to gain from this. He is just plain mad.

    The kid that did it was seen to carry a couple duffle bags out that night. Nobody else took anything out. He is the size 12. There is a lot more evidence that points to him. Too much to go in to.

    I believe the prisoners dilema will work. I sure want it to. For their sake. I want them to become three good men.

    We were all young once. Most of us made mistakes at some time along the way. So they are not unique in any way. What we want is for them to learn well and grow up to be the fine men they can be. This isn't the end of the world just something that can be positive.
     
  16. veloce92

    veloce92 Formula Junior

    Nov 25, 2007
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    My father is a game theorist. I'll tell ya, when I was a kid he would try to explain it to me and I would just get more lost...
     

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