Problems with 87 TR....HELP!!!!!

Where to start? Go get a new battery, yours has lost the ability to hold a charge.

 

One possibility is that your alternator is not functioning properly. If it is failing to charge the battery, then when the car is started and running, you are essentially "running off the battery".

This can only happen for so long before the battery is depleted.

Once the battery drops below some voltage, the ignition system will not have enough power to function properly, and you will lose ignition.

If the above happened, one bank of six of your 12 total cylinders may have failed first (just speculating here). If that happened, then you would feel a huge loss in power and also have problems accelerating. You might also cause an engine fire, due to the unignited fuel ingiting in your catalytic converters.

This is all speculation. This is a very common occurence in V8 cars with failing alternators...

First step is to have your alternator tested at a shop. If it tests bad, a rebuild is in order, also remembering to replace the voltage regulator inside the alternator.


--Mike

 

...only after checking the alternator. Otherwise, you'll muck up another battery.

 

a stone cold batter should hold a charge of 12.5 v. i dont own a TR but a general rule of thumb is 14.5 volts to 16.5 from the alternator. with the car running, you should see a minimum volage at the battery. some older cars will stay arounf 13.5 at idle as the alternators dont produce a field until 2000rpm's or so.

suffice it to say, your reading of 12.3 running indicates the alternator is bad. i cant help with removal advice as i am just a 308 guy . best wishes.

 

Al -- Got your PM, but just thought I'd respond here. After reading your post I originally thought to myself that the "no starter cranking" and the "running bad" were two distinct problems that just happened to occur simulaneously, but don't know that for sure.

Agree that measuring 12.3 V when running isn't a good sign for the alternator, but if the battery is near +12V (and no other problems) I believe it should still run OKish. (If it's ~5 years old, I'd just get a new one anyway.)

I'd check simple things first like "is there spark present on both banks when running" (just see if a timing light flashes when installed on each bank) and maybe (when not running) remove the fuel pump relays and jumper the fuel pump relay sockets just to confirm by the sound that the fuel pumps both run OK. Instructions for that are in this thread:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62660

I'd also unplug and reseat the C12 and C13 round connectors on the black box under the RH rear fender, the connector at the coolant temperature thermistor on the thermostat housing, and the connectors under the coolant expansion tank.

Just some preliminary suggestions...(I don't want to go Gremlin hunting )

 

Hi Al,

These are just suggestions--we're not really going to be able to fix the problem, just point you in the right direction.

TR's don't really tend to be a do-it-yourself kind of car, not as much as the 3x8s anyway, so shadetree mechanic advice might be a bit sparse.

Any good auto shop should have a heavy duty ammeter which can test the output voltage. Your "ammeter" function on your digital / analog mutlimeter will not be able to handle the current (or lack thereof).

"TR" and "ALTERNATOR" came up with nothing on the new site, but the old archives had a lot of hits.

1. Go to the old site search:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/cgi-bin/discus/search.cgi

2. You want to to two searches. First, is "tr alternator". Then also search on "testarossa alternator".

3. Put the "Keyword options" to "And" (Match all keywords)

4. Put the "Look in" option as "Subject Lines"


Between the two queries, I found six hits.

This might help, one of the above hits:

Alternator Removal on 1986 Testarossa
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/202523.html

Tons of other info in the other threads...

Don't be afraid to flatbed the thing to a shop!

 

Al -- I'll be back with some instructions/figures on this in a few hours.

 

Frank with the 512BBi had running problems...after getting his alternators rebuilt, he said his car never ran better.

 

I too have an '87 TR and when one cylinder bank goes dead the power drop is dramatic and sudden. Check all the connectors you can, especially the ones under the right rear fender area....specifically the big Fuel ECU connectors and the big round ones rearward of those. Verify spark to each cylinder bank with a timing light as mentioned previously by Steve (Great Guy by the way !!) Removing the alternator isn't very hard, but it is in an awkward position. You will need to remove the grill just behind the rear window. Then remove the left side upper intake plenum. Then remove the air feed hose, and the rest is self-explanitory. The alternator is probably a Delco unit so rebuilding is no big deal. Your problem does sound "charging system" related so far.

 

The old sputtering and not starting eh? Mine did this as well.

Open the front compartment and replace all of the fuses on the fuse box. Most importantly the ones for the fuel pumps. Next, take out the big relays in the fuse box that are for the LH and RH fuel pump. They may have gone bad. You can replace these by taking them to NAPA and having them run the number. They cost abotu $12 a piece.

If I were you I'd go get a can of contact cleaner and spray out that entire fuse box before replacing all the fuses and relays. I did this to mine and , knock on wood, I have NO problems!

 

Perhaps the MOST IMPORTANT things you can buy when you get a Ferrari is a shop manual and a parts manual. The shop manuals are at times kinda sketchy on information but it is still light years ahead of having no reference information at all. There....I feel better now.

Did you try and "jumper" the fuel pump relays as Steve said previously? These relays are up front in the fuse panel. Jumping them would at least show that the pumps work....because you would hear them.

 

Did you try to jump start the car with a battery charger when the battery was low? If so, sometimes that will blow a relay in the fuel system. I did that to mine pre-FerrariChat - the car would start and idle, but not rev.

 

Al -- Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Some general questions first which might aid our communication:

1. Do you know the "version" of your '87 TR? Alternatively, on the top of the engine block near cylinder #6 there are some raised cast letters like "F 113B" or "F 113A040" -- this is the engine family -- what's on your engine?

2. Is it a K-Jet or a KE-Jet?

3. Does your TR have (or did it originally have) catalytic converters?

4. And finally, if you have a TR OM to reference what is the print number? (should be on the inside of the back cover in the form "XXX/YY"). And if so, does that OM match your TR's configuration -- compare some of the figures shown in the "fuel injection system" part of Section 3 to your TR.

Of those two sensors mounted on top of the water housing, for your problem, you would only be worried about the smaller, forwardmost one -- this is the coolant temp thermistor (the other larger one is the thermo-time switch and is only involved in firing the cold start injector at start-up). Getting ~5K ohms when measuring between the two terminals at room temperature (20 deg C) is about right, but measure from each terminal to the brass body -- each "leg" should be ~2.5K ohms at room temperature (and the resistance should decrease with increasing temp as you report).

Depending on your engine family, sticking out sideways on the LH side of the water housing there may be a water temp switch with an R (red) wire and a CN (orange/black) using individual spade type terminals -- if you give me a TR OM XXX/YY number I can refer you to figures which clarify its location (if you have it). When cranking the starter, or with the engine running, the red wire terminal should be +12V relative to chassis ground (like the engine block) -- this red wire (if so equipped) is part of the same +12V network that runs the whole KE injection system. As a first step (and assuming that you've already verified that you've got spark on both banks and both fuel pumps run manually), confirm/deny if this +12V is present or not on the red wire during starter cranking (or engine running).

The ball is in your court...

 

Al -- Don't buy a thermo-time switch yet -- yours is probably OK, and, even if bad, it can't cause a poor warm-running problem. There are 2 different types of thermo-time switch (with different internal wiring connections) so we need the engine family number off of your engine before we could say what the ohm measurements should be at the terminals and terminals-to-body (when cold or hot).

540/89 is not the true proper OM for your '87 TR (since that OM was printed in 1989), but it will probably be very close in almost every respect -- again getting your engine family number will help the most for the identification, but we can use that OM for a common reference when needed (I'll download a copy of 540/89 from the Owners Site).

The attached jpeg is a TR K-Jet system with warm-up regulators visible below the intake manifolds. US KE-Jet with Lambda systems have nothing visible under the manifolds in that position, and I believe KE-Jet without Lambda systems have a different looking gizmo in about that same position under the intake manifolds -- but your engine family number will be a positive ID.

PS Just guessing, but "gas up" could mean the previous Owner used a spark plug with a slightly hotter heat range. Since I don't get to go 150 mph for extended periods , I run 1 NGK heat range hotter on mine.
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F113B is a KE-Jet without Lambda (so no cat converters and that 540/89 OM will be OK-ish).

Can't really say that hard revving in "N" would be a specific problem, but, if your alternator is self-destructing electrically at the same time, it could do some badness (but the alternator doesn't know if you're moving or not so it would have blown up anyway).

Yes -- measure the voltage on that red wire. There's a fused relay inside the Item 18 "Relays box" as shown in Fig 44 on page 64 of the 540/89 OM which is what this test functionally checks (i.e., if no 12V, you'd start looking at that fused relay area).

Also, the two connectors at that Item 18 "Relays box" are what I (wrongly) referred to earlier as C12 and C13 (they're not called that on your wiring diagram -- they're just unnamed). On the US version, they're both round connectors where the outer knurled ring unscrews and the center section with the wires just pulls out straight, but there's usually a lot of friction so it's easy to break the knurled rings. Don't know if your connector style is the same, but, if it is, it's best to unscrew a little and then wiggle the center section out a bit, unscrew a little more, wiggle more out, etc., until detached (I'd put the odds at 50/50 that yours are already broken if they are the same as the US ).

This jpeg shows the C12 and C13 connectors (and the US equivalent of your "Relays box") on my US TR (I replaced my pre-broken knurled rings with Alum pieces). Your "Relays box" will be in the same place -- under the RH rear wing on top of the RH rear wheel liner.
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