Procedure to cure a 355 Spider roof that does not close properly due to old fluid

Flushing out the old, sticky hydraulic oil and bleeding the system.

My 355 Spider roof now works like a charm. Roof closes all the way (I thought it was designed to stop 10 inches from closed. It’s not. The roof closes all the way if your secondary cylinders are working properly.) The roof mechanism clears the seat belt mounts by several inches.

The culprit was old hydraulic fluid that had become gummy. I flushed it out using the procedure below, and now the roof works better than ever. I’m delighted that I don’t have an expensive problem with the cylinders.

Flushing and Bleeding Procedure.

Notes

Having recently replaced the hydraulic fluid reservoir I noticed on the test cycles that the secondary cylinders were not functioning at all. All the work of raising and lowering the convertible top was being done by the primary cylinders. I had never noticed this before, and just assumed that the roof was working fine, although I had to pull the roof down for the final 10 inches. Forum posts suggested that the central support bar across the roof may be bent. Mine was not. I decided to try bleeding the system.

This task is covered on Page H80 of volume three of the workshop manual, although I spent hours translating the Italian and French columns to try to ascertain what the English was meant to say. There is a Ferrarichat post, dated 2/24/07, by Dcup who did a better job of describing the procedure than the workshop manual, but I think that more detail may be helpful to members who are not experts.

This task took me two days, mainly because several of the screws and bolts were almost inaccessible to a large person. If you have svelte feminine hands, or know what you are doing, you can probably do this in a couple of hours.

Tools:

13mm socket and ratchet
17mm closed-end ratcheting spanner
13mm closed end spanner
7mm open ended spanner
Bleed kit.
#4 Allen key
#6 Allen key

Parts:

Mercedes ZH-M hydraulic fluid. Some have said use regular jack oil. Maybe that’s fine, but the Mercedes fluid is what the Ferrari dealer uses and costs $14 a liter, which is not bad. You will only need a single one liter bottle for this job.

Procedure:

Before you can get close to step one in the workshop manual, several trim pieces need to be removed. The roof should be closed when you begin.

1. Remove Phillips head screw from LH lowermost mechanism shroud, then pull down to unclip from trim piece above.

2. Remove center trim above the parcel shelf by unscrewing the two Phillips head screws under the black screw covers, which lever up.

3. Remove LH upper trim by removing single Phillips head screw to the right of the cylinder, and then pushing the trim and leather cylinder cover back and up off the cylinder.

4. Remove RH upper trim. There are two Phillips head screws behind the cylinder and one to the right of the cylinder.

5. Remove the leather pump cover from between the seats by unscrewing the four Phillips head screws, two each side. You may need to remove the ECU cover immediately behind the RH seat in order to get at the RH screws. (This has two Phillips head screws and the bottom and then slides upwards to disengage a clip.) Pop out the emergency roof switch from the LH side and slide the pump cover forward to rest on the console.

6. Remove the two bolts going into the LH cylinder at the base of the cylinder body using a 17mm spanner.

7. Remove the allen headed bolt with a #4 key from the front of the fork on the LH cylinder.

8. Remove the bolt holding the base of the LH secondary cylinder to the roof frame with a 13mm socket.

9. Repeat for the RH side.

10. Disconnect both primary cylinders from the roof mechanism by pulling the fork from its mount and letting the cylinders rest freely.

11. Check the fluid level in the reservoir. Refill to the Max line if required. Do so by removing the two allen bolts from the brass compensation valve in front of the pump with a #6 allen key. Push the compensation valve body to one side to reveal the 13mm brass filler plug in the pump body. Undo the #1 bleed screw in the pump body. Undo the 13mm plug and fill the reservoir to the Max line with hydraulic fluid through a tube. Replace the plug. Close the #1 bleed screw.

12. Turn on the ignition and use the emergency roof switch to run through five cycles of opening and closing. The primary cylinders must be disconnected from the roof mechanism, as described above, before doing this. End the cycle with the pistons of both cylinders fully retracted, that is to say at their innermost position of travel.

13. Move the LH cylinder such that the fork is tucked up against the bulkhead; fork down, cylinder vertical, and the bleed nipple uppermost. Attach the bleed tube to the nipple. I found it convenient to tuck the bleed cup between the carpet and the bulkhead, in a rag, so that it couldn’t move.

14. On the RH side of the car turn the RH primary cylinder upside down, such that the fork is in the air and the cylinder is resting on the parcel shelf.

15. By hand, push each small secondary cylinder in and out. Do they move freely? Does the pivot mechanism the fork end is attached to move freely? Lubricate the pivot (part of the roof frame) with WD40. If your secondary cylinders are seized, you may be looking at having to replace them, which I do not cover here. Mine moved freely. Leave them unattached until the end of the procedure.

16. Undo the #1 bleed screw on the side of the pump body. Three turns counter-clockwise is enough.

17. On the LH primary cylinder, open the bleed nipple with a 7mm open ended spanner.

18. Pull up on the fork of the RH primary cylinder. This should draw oil from the bleed nipple on the LH cylinder into the cup.

19. When the RH fork is fully extended, close the bleed nipple on the LH cylinder.

20. Check the fluid level in the reservoir. Given that you have drawn out fluid, it should now be below Max.

21. Refill to the Max line, using the procedure in 11.

22. Close the #1 bleed screw in the side of the pump body.

23. Undo #7 bleed screw on the bottom side of the compensation valve. There should be enough play in the tubes and wires that the compensation valve can be tilted towards you to access the bleed screw.

24. Unwedge the LH primary cylinder so it is free to move.

25. Turn the ignition on and use the emergency roof switch to extend the LH fork as far as it will go. Both the RH fork (which you pulled out) and the LH fork should now be at their outermost position of travel.

26. Close #7 bleed screw.

27. Run through 3 or 4 cycles using the emergency switch, keeping the button pressed for 2 seconds when the innermost or outermost points of travel are reached. This helps get air out of the system. Both forks should come in and out in unison. Finish with them fully retracted. Turn off ignition.

Now you have a decision to make. Undo the bleed pipe from the nipple, and examine the contents of the pipe and cup you just drained from the system. Mine was gummy, viscous and yellow. In fact, within a couple of minutes of being exposed to air, it started to solidify in the tubing. Compare to the new fluid. If the old fluid is in poor condition, repeat the bleeding procedure that began at step 11, being sure to refill the reservoir each time. You should get to a point where the fluid coming out is less viscous and approaching the quality of the new fluid you put it. If you were still getting air in the bleed pipe when the RH cylinder was fully extended, you will also have run through the bleed process again. I had no air in mine.

When you’re done reassemble everything. Be careful with the 17mm bolts – the ones on the outside of the cylinders are very fiddly to get back in. Make sure bleed screw #7 is tight before putting the compensation valve back.

When everything is back together, run the engine when running through cycles of putting the roof up and down so the battery doesn’t get flat. With any luck your roof will be quicker and the secondary cylinders will now work, closing the roof all the way.
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Since no one has said it, I'll say a big "Thanks" from the spider community.

 

Great thread. Going to do this myself next weekend. Thanks!

 

Nice job there! and good pics too.
Since i am starting to reassemble the COMPLETE hydraulics system (previous owner or should i say wa..r had it REMOVED) I need to know the connections (visible on your 3rd picture where the bleeding reservoir is put) on the solenoid valve front. You have 2 pairs below and 1cable above. Each cable has a letter indication. Can you you tell me which indication goes where? It is not clear on the shematic to be 100% sure. By the way, can these tubes rotate "freely" arround their axis? or are they solid and fixed?

I will have - once every and all parts and pipes etc.. are installed, fill it up with oil from scratch. my hydraulic system is currently a "pneumatic" one )))) How that will go, I will post in some weeks when i am done. Any advice welcome btw.

 

Nice post. I'll be trying this soon as I've got some problems with me roof failing to drop behind the seats when opening. I topped up the fluid which was just at the minimum mark but this has failed to rectify the problem.

I should be buying my hydraulic oil in the US. I bought a litre from Mercedes here in Hong Kong and they charge US$50/ltr.

 

I have refilled my hydraulics a few weeks ago. did the bleeding procedure etc...
I even fixed 2 leaking main pistons!! it all works well and top comes down nicely. There is one thing that doesnt work however. I need - after opening the top - to pull back all the way the top before i can let it lower. This manual job should be automatically done by secundary pistons but despite the bleeding procedures, these pipes remain empty! I cannot get any oil in it and suspect that one valve doesnt work (the one behind driver seat). It is this one that switches between main and secundary cylinders. Does anyone know how i can check this valve is properly working? does anyone know how to bleed the secundary hydraulic lines? or how this valve is controlled? (yes, ECU, i know, but i mean which control signal it should recieve? DC or pulsed DC?

 

hi, i seen what you had posted about having problems with removing your roof, i have the same problem did you end up finding out how if so can you please let me knoe

thanks

 

JGV F355, did you ever find out how to get the small RAMS to work? any help would be appreciated. I have the same problem.

Thanks

 

I am having two problems when I try to get the top up:

1) When the main RAM on the passenger side retracts it misses the fork to lift the right side of the top up. Pressure placed on the fork moves it back in place so the passenger RAM can engage the fork. I looked to see if there were any adjustments but could not see any. I also did not see any bent frame members. The top on the passengers side is a little lower that the drivers side. Pushing the fork in so it will meet the Main RAM will lift the top up about one half of an inch.

2) the small RAMS do not engage at all to get the top to move forward even after the passenger fork is pushed back and engaged on the main RAM.

Any help would really be appreciated.

thanks everyone.
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Hi Chaps, I am analyzing the full function of every part that has anything to do with the roof motion. This is one of the 82 things to do before dying ))))))))))))))))))

Anyway, NO, i was not able to find the reasons yet (must admit i put my research on hold due to the season )), i will get back to it in the winter. So I open and close with manual override button for now. I am recording the schematics of the ecu and will probably make a replacement unit which is much simpler than trying to get the old one to work but thats for later.....
I did not find why the secundary rams dont work. The mismatch of the fork, i have also. I noticed that in case one would have a nice synch-motion together with secundary pistons, in my case, i would not have this problem, because i see that these fork position are depedant from the "extension" of the roof-top-itself.(the horizontal part i mean, so the flat part). for me this fork mismatch is due to absent motion of my sec cylinders......
I made contact with an English person recently with exact same problem, this is typical for 355 spider roofs. As soon as i have my ersatz-ecu for niccle and dime i will sell it on to the members!!))
lets keep in touch of your findings so we can come to combined efforts and help all the cases arround here and other ferraristi forums!

By the way, is your ecu working and the seats and the pots ect ? do the seats move back and forth properly? do they initiate the cycle, coz as long as they dont move, cycle is not complete and secondaries wont start yet...... I think.

 

Well, I got most of the problems resolved. I again followed the bleeding proc
Endure from FloridaF355. I made sure to do each step exactly as written. This resulted in the secondary RAMS getting totally filled and no movement was possible indicating they both had filled with hydraulic fluid.

Thank you FloridaF355 for the precise procedure.

One very important thing I found out is that the secondary RAMS only engage when using the console switch. They will NOT move with the emergency switch.

The secondary RAM movement resulted in the top actually extending out an additional 1/4 of an inch. The fabric was snug and very tight. I used the three side bolts of the frame base to move back the roof frame to allow for the roof to properly lock down on the windshield frame.

The only problem I have not been able to resolve is the passenger side fork being further out from the pivot bolt resulting in the top not being able to fully close by itself.

I guess that is the next challenge! The roof frame does not appear bent in any way.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

I'll post detail pictures when this is all over.

 

Well, I got most of the problems resolved. I again followed the bleeding proc
Endure from FloridaF355. I made sure to do each step exactly as written. This resulted in the secondary RAMS getting totally filled and no movement was possible indicating they both had filled with hydraulic fluid.

Thank you FloridaF355 for the precise procedure.

One very important thing I found out is that the secondary RAMS only engage when using the console switch. They will NOT move with the emergency switch.

The secondary RAM movement resulted in the top actually extending out an additional 1/4 of an inch. The fabric was snug and very tight. I used the three side bolts of the frame base to move back the roof frame to allow for the roof to properly lock down on the windshield frame.

The only problem I have not been able to resolve is the passenger side fork being further out from the pivot bolt resulting in the top not being able to fully close by itself.

I guess that is the next challenge! The roof frame does not appear bent in any way.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

I'll post detail pictures when this is all over.

 

Hi,

i have following detail to ask,..do you actually hear the solenoid valve when secundary rams are in motion? does it make a sound when they engage? is there a "click" that can be heard? I need to know how i can be sure my valve is still functional? and if one can hear it, when exactly does it happen? thanks for all possible help,
J

 

JGV, using the console switch, the main RAMS will lift the roof up. When fully up, the solenoid valve will engage and divert the hydraulic fluid to the secondary RAMS. I do hear a sound from the solenoid due to the main hydraulic pump feeding the secondary RAMS. It takes about a second or so for the secondary RAMs to start moving the roof forward. The roof extends all the way to the windshield requiring a manual movement if about 1 to 2 inches.

Remember the secondary RAMS will NOT engage using the emergency switch.

Before bleeding the system using the FloriaF355 procedure, the secondary RAMS did absolutely nothing. They had no fluid in them.

Now, to fix the fork problem. Then life would be good!

 

There seem to be two questions raised in this thread:

1. The fork does not engage the pivot pin when the hood is going up.

2. Even after the bleeding procedure I detail at the beginning of the thread, the secondary rams don't work.

On #1, I'm not an expert, but in my experience the fork missing the pivot is independent of the secondary rams not working, meaning even when you get them working, the fork will still miss the pivot.

The geometry of the frame determines if the fork will miss the pivot. There are three bolts on each side holding the frame to the body. Loosen all 3 and pull the frame back, towards the rear of the vehicle. Tighten the bolts while pushing the frame back. You should be able to influence the geometry of the frame by the 1/4" or 1/2" that will make all the difference.

I had the canvas top replaced on my car recently. In adjusting the frame so the rubber seals around the window sealed better, the top shop played with the geometry, causing one of my forks to miss the pivot. The shop called a Ferrari tech around to sort it out, and the guy said in doing these for a decade, there was no science to it, just loosen the bolts, give it a good push back and tighten the bolts. Do that a few times and eventually you'll get the fork to engage.

On #2, the first thing is to check you don't have a fluid problem. Is the reservoir full, is the fluid good quality, not sticky, do you have air in the pipes. If you bleed it properly you should be able to eliminate the hydraulic fluid as a cause.

If there are no leaks in the cylinders, all the hydraulic pipes are intact and not leaking, then it may be an electrical problem. Two signs of it being electrical are that both secondary rams failed at the same time, and that the problem is intermittent.

If the primary rams work, but then nothing happens to the secondary rams, it may be a solenoid problem. The solenoid valve diverts fluid pressure from the primaries to the secondaries.

Here's how to see if you have a bad connection that is stopping the solenoid from doing its job. First, turn the battery off at the cut off switch (under the RH flap in the front storage trunk of the car). If you haven't checked lately, see if the fuses next to the hydraulic pump (under the leather cover between the seats) are OK.

After taking off the trim covering the LH primary cylinder, you'll see a brass cube to the side and below the LH primary cylinder. It has two hex bolts in the top. Undo them with an allen key. Lift the solenoid valve block away from the bulkhead. See photos below.

You'll see an electrical connector on the side of the solenoid housing. Unclip it. Follow the wire down to the connector on the bulkhead. Undo it. Using an ohm meter, check for continuity on the wires (you're looking for zero readings). See if any of the wires to the microswitches have been trapped or cut by the roof mechanism. Make sure there is no corrosion where the wires earth to the bulkhead. (See photos). Check that both spades inside the solenoid connector are clean and intact, not broken off. Then spray every connection with WD40.

With all the wire connectors plugged back in, turn the battery back on and try the top using the regular button on the center console, not the override switch. Hopefully your secondary rams will work. If not, you may have more serious issues. The ECU could have an issue, the cylinders themselves could have failed, the actual solenoid could have failed.

Hope this helps those who are having problems.
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Thanks FloridaF355. I did find out that one of my problems is the rear bow is twisted and bent on the passenger side. I'll have to figure out how to replace only the rear bow with a new one. I think I can do that by removing the two bolts that attach the rear bow to he other bows on the frame. I'm not sure how it bent and twisted but I'll have to check the alignment with great care this time around.

 

Hi Florida F355,
thanks for the great stuff !!
in my case, i checked some time ago almost everything and found no issues.....untill i read your text! you mention "Make sure there is no corrosion where the wires earth to the bulkhead. "....this is something i didnt check before.
my question: are there wires that are earthed to the mass of the car? Are you referring to the small metal clip on the black connector in your 3rd photo, those are just physical connections, not real earthings. Can you explain somewhat more with what you mean by this?.;which wires?

by the way, I even applied once 12V to the contacts of the relais after I removed it from valve, and it clearly gives a "click" and something in it moves, but still I dont know if its working ok or not and certainly not if applying steady 12V dc is 'healthy' thing to do..

merci,
J

 

JGV - The only thing that looked like an earth I saw was the bolt that connects all those black plastic connectors to the bulkhead. I tightened it and sprayed with WD40 at the same time as I undid all the connectors and sprayed them. So I'm not sure exactly what I did to solve the problem, but since I did that it has worked like a charm.

If you have a working solenoid (you say you put 12V over it and it clicked), and plenty of clean fluid in the pipes, then it seems to me that either your ECU is not sending a signal, or there is a problem in your electrical connections that is preventing the solenoid engaging.

I was keen to check all the low cost elements first and rule them out before worrying about the expensive components. By checking no wires were cut or trapped, no connectors had a dry or corroded joint, and the earth bolt (if that's what it is) was clean, I got it working. My problem was intermittent, which in my simple mind, made me think a loose earth was a likely culprit.

Hope you track down your problem.

 

FloridaF355, in your procedure above, line 15, you have the secondary RAMS, moved in and out to see if they are seized. What positions shouuld the seconndary piston arm be before continuing with the bleeding procedure.

When the bleeding is complete, should I be able to manually move the secondary piston arm? When I finish the bleeding, my secondary arms are still soft and can be moved easily.

What is the function of the #1 and #7 bleed screws.

Is there a way to get the air out of the secondaries without following the complete procedure.

Thank you so much for the help.

 

The secondary cylinders should be pushed in, as I recall, before bleeding because that way there is less oil (which may have air bubbles in it) to be drawn through the system by the bleed and into the cup.

I'm not certain if the cylinders should be able to be moved by hand after the bleed.

I believe the #1 bleed screw, on the side of the pump, is to force air from the reservoir. The #7 bleed screw, on the bottom of the compensation valve, is to bleed air from the compensation valve.

The secondaries are sealed, hence why the rams move when fluid is diverted under pressure into them, so I know of no way that air can be removed from them other than by pulling enough fluid through the LH primary bleed nipple that all the trapped air has been bled.

I hope this helps. I know these systems can be frustrating. Make sure there is plenty of fluid in the reservoir, no leaking pipes, that you draw plenty of fluid through the system as you bleed, and no air bubbles are coming out. Once everything is tightened up, listen for the solenoid diverting fluid to the secondaries when you run through a full cycle using the regular switch (not the emergency override).

 

@ FloridaF355

Thanks for posting the procedure. I followed it and the Primary Cylinders do work very well now. My oil was also gummy; the only problem I had was to put in phase both of the Primary Cylinders, probably I left a bit of air in the system. My Secondary Cylinders are not seized and move freely but they are free to move as if there was no oil in their system. The posted procedure does not cover that. Is there any additional step to fill the Secondary Cylinders other than crack open the fittings of the Secondary Cylinders?

Thanks again for the post

 

What do you mean by "to put in phase both of the primary cylinders, probably I left a bit of air in the system?"

I'm not an expert in hydraulics, but I would imagine that if you leave air in it will rise up to the highest point and your secondary cylinders won't work.

I would not crack open the secondary cylinders if I were you. They are sealed units and subject to a lot of pressure. Assuming your system is sealed (no split tubes, no oil leaking from any cylinders) you just need to push the rams in on the secondaries and bleed the system so you've drawn so much fluid out of the LH bleed nipple, filling the reservoir up repeatedly (as you would if you were bleeding brakes after a fluid change) so that there are no air bubbles left in the system. When you run the system 4 or 5 times with all the bleed screws closed it should equal out the pressure between the left and right primaries, but no air should be getting it.

 

hi all.

my spider has just had a new canvas roof fitted prior to my purchase.
the roof mechanism now has a couple of issues...

firstly, the roof frame when closing seems to want to come down on top of the seats even though the seats have went through the full moving forward cycle; they are definately as far forward as they should be....the only way for the cycle to continue is to use the manual lever 'tilt' the back of both seats forward...

secondly, the roof only then retracts down to the point where the mechanism meets the 'striking plates' that are located about 10" up from the floor base either side behind the seats...the roof then stops...it seems as though the passenger side is not 'sliding down' the strike plate...


the roof shall go through the close procedure, but is ever so out of align with the locating the locating 'keeper' above the passenger side sun visor.

any advice on both issues? are they related?

thanks for any help in advance.

 

Hi,

I think you need to do two things;
1) bleed the system, ,left and right unequal could be indication of air in system. check the sound when cycle is running. If there is air you can "hear" it...
2) align the frame. somewhat earlier in this text is another example of how to do this.

..my modest opinion,,,
J

 

Thx for all of the tips and details on repairing a 355 spyder roof .

If u may, (and I know it may be quite the hassle) document a video of all the detailed steps that you've mentioned .

Please don't get me wrong, I'd be willing to cover the expenses whatever it takes due to my urgent needs.

You can contact me at : [email protected]

Your consideration is appreciated, and waiting for your reply.

Best regards