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Project 300hp 328

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by atheyg, Jan 17, 2004.

  1. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    Thanks to Matt "Kermit" Morgan for doing a fantastic job on boring and polishing the throttle body from 65mm to 70mm for my 328, Matt also fabricated special heat shielding to further cool the intake air and increase HP.

    With my test pipe/K&N filter + these mods we calculate appx 290-300hp at least from my stock 3.2, can't wait to set it up.
     
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  3. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    Heat Shielding
     
  4. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Interesting

    What have you done with the fuel metering unit air outlet pipe diameter (that connects to the throttle) ?? What size is it std, and have you (did you need to) made it larger to match your throttle body??

    How about throwing in some UK cams and ECU's....very easy. Pistons too of course, but a little more involved.

    98 RON fuel, or more?

    Exhaust manifolds std US? Silencer?
     
  5. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Wow!
    Very impressive - can't wait to see the dyno !!!

    following with interest
    Russ
     
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  7. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Can you enlarge the throttle body on a 308QV ?
     
  8. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Ferrarifixer has a point. If the intake plumbing leading to the throttle body is the same size as stock, how does enlarging just the throttle body help?
     
  9. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    Everything else, all plumbing, etc. is stock, Kermit has done quite a bit of flowtesting with the enlarged TB and it offers significant flow improvement.From what I understand getting air to the Tb is not the major restriction it's the bottle neck of the TB.

    Interesting fact is the TB I had enlarged was from a 308GTSi 2v car, they use the same size 65mm almost identical TB for this car and Ferrari then went to 4 valve heads and then the enlarged 3.2 4v engine with this same 65mm TB, so yes any injected car can have its Tb enlarged.
    Ferrari solved this issue with the later models such as the 355 with multi throttle bodys
     
  10. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
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    what did you do for the butterfly valve inside it---make a new paddle? and new shaft?
     
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  12. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    Kermit custom made a new 70mm butterfly and modded the shaft.
     
  13. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    I think that you will definately flow more cfm at high open throttle settings.

    Am wondering how the air velocity across the throttle body makes a difference in throttle response (like a carb venturi, essentially a tb). With the stock cams and plenum, don't expect air pulsations to be much of a problem to the airmass plate. I'm sure Kermit is on top of this.

    Ferrarifixer - how much more aggressive a cam profile can run with the Kjet? Could consider as an experiment retarding the stock USA exhaust cam one hole (about 4 degrees, I'm told) to tenuously give a bit more overlap without generating too much reversion for the Kjet. Are the UK cams more than the 244/244 with 24 overlap? I know many Porsche guys have pushed the cam limits with their Kjets.

    This is a terrific project, and am looking forward to the results!
    good luck!

    rt
     
  14. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    wow! great thread. i love this stuff!
     
  15. Dale

    Dale F1 Veteran

    Oct 7, 2003
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    Looking forward to seeing the dyno results on this very interesting,

    airflow rate
    velocity= ----------------------
    area of section

    unsteady gas dynamics,air flow through the engine,they should teach this at school,they dont so we learn it ourselves,find the math very interesting even though im crap at maths,
    Dale.
     
  16. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    The K jet can run quite aggressive cams, but you may need to raise the idle speed to control pulses.

    The UK 328 cams are still fairly tame by race specs, but better than US, not sure of exact details, someone else will spend the time posting them!

    I built a very aggressive VW Golf GTi engine a few years back. It had a rally spec "Kent" Cam in, and used a very slightly mod'd K Jet system. The idle had to be around 1200 to give clean idle emmissions though. Not a bad unit, and definitely more room to go more aggressive, even for the road use.

    I also built a Porsche Turbo engine, again using K Jet and better cams. It runs faultlessly with immense power......had 300 rear wheel BHP which was the max the dyno could take at the time, and that was at 5500rpm on 0.8 Bar boost. It revs to 7500rpm and 2.0 bar.....about 600BHP on std K Jet with only mod being a boost controlled switch to turn on the cold start injector at 1.2 Bar. Very crude but effective.

    I'm sure this 328 Throttle mod will be a gem, subject to the metering unit being big enough to take advantage of the bigger throttle. I've got a couple of QV's in, so I'll measure the metering unit myself if no-one else posts the size.
     
  17. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Kermit did a nice job on it but I just can't believe that ferrari could have made that big a mistake on something so basic. Removing the entire stock FI system and converting to carbs or EFI is only good for about 35hp. Honestly, I might believe there's 10 hp going to the bigger throttle boby, a K&N and replacing the ribbed hose with a smooth bore hose but 40??? It looks great anyway, and I hope the dyno proves me wrong....it wouldn't be the first time....
     
  18. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Sorry to be the negative one here but Im skeptical about you hitting 300HP with the mods to the TB and some heat shields. Ill use a different car for example, a 5.0 mustang. Installing a larger than stock TB on a stock engine always hurts throttle response and doesnt increase HP, well, maybe 2-3 HP gain, maybe. What Russ did is a different story all together because he tossed all the crap upstream of the intake valves and dumped more fuel in as well. That yeilded just a tad under 300HP. A mere TB increase and a few minor heat shields aint going to cut it. Its just not that easy to make 40HP on an already optimized system. I think 300 HP is realistic using the k-jet system if you do cams as well.
     
  19. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie

    Jul 21, 2002
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    You might chat to the guys at QV London. Mike (of QV) modified a few 328s to duplicate the flapper, air box etc to get more power from them (the race regs stipulated you had to use the k-jet).

    Russ, if you are reading this, shoot Mike an email/call them up for 4v "aggressive" cam specs. Given my starting point, I didn't explore this with them, but they've done quite a few 11mm lift cams and can supply.

    As always, some data would be helpful.
     
  20. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Paul.
    Will do - do you have a contact phone or email for QV of London?
    [This is timely as my cores should arrive at Elgin's this week. As a side note, Carl Jones (Aussie FerrariTech) feels that rolling in more advance early and throughout the range will make a big mid-range and response improvement, as noted in the Forza Carobu 308 article.]

    Atheyg - will post their reply here so we can both look at options.

    best to all
    rt

    *edit* - Nevermind Paul - got the website and number - will call Monday
     
  21. Matt Morgan, "Kermit"

    Matt Morgan, "Kermit" Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2003
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    Thanks for the kind words Jeff. That was a challenging project. A close look shows that that particular TB was originally off of a 2 valve. As luck would have it, the bolt down pattern was square, so that it could be turned 90 degrees. Close inspection seemed to indicate that the plenum for both are basically the same , just a few ribs, wording etc. The throttle shaft had to be extended, with a flat surfacer machined in to match a 4 valve TPS, as the 2 valve didn't use that style of Bosch system.
    Sometime a few months ago I spent literally weeks in an extensive flowbench test of the entire system, and as I posted the results it should be in archives, so I'll save room here. So thorough was the testing, that I completely reran it to eliminate the possibilities of error.
    To make a long story short, The 70mm TB outflowed the stock 65mm by better than 10%. Please note that the test was run with the Air Filter Houseing, et al, to realistically simulate real conditions.
    There are I might add J-pegs on my site right now, but please be patient, with the under construction, I have a new Motivated Professional taking over the construction.
    One Item that is in stock, and will be on the site, available is the Stainless Heat Sheild, and those farticular gaskets that are part of the package. The heat sheild idea has been around for many years now, I just brought that section of my experiences over, and did a set to fit. Basically it is sound, proven tecnology. The gaskets are Buna n, but with a cloth weave inside, eliminateing that "crawl into the runners" that we have all seen. I have personally seen old runner gaskets with evedance that a full 1/8" had squished out blocking the runner.They are available in a stock thickness as well, and will be on the site as well.
    www.durable1.com is the URL.
    Now to the questions,
    Ferrarifixer, I do not know what Jeff plans to use on that, as well as much of the motor, as our brief discussions stayed pretty well on the TB topic. IMO, the TB itself is the restriction, as I used nothing fancier than 3" dryer hose to connect the Bosch unit to the TB when it was mounted on the Bench. Cams, ECU's, the sky is reallythe limit providing one is carefull with the overlap causeing a reversion in the plenum when useing the Bosch unit, as that will "fool" the unit into thinking the engines needs (remember that sensor plate, that sets the whole fuel curve?)
    A side note I might add here is even at WOT the 70mm did NOT overtax the stock fuel distributor, so leaning out should'nt be a problem.
    I hav e a 308 her in the final stages of assembly and fire up. It will be running one of the 70mm's so I'll post all I find.
    Thank you Russ, after following your work I consider that a great compliment.
    And Dr Tommy, Yes many times allready!
    Atlantaman, I machine my own, in house, after spending a considerable abount of time sourceing the correct alloy brass, to hard, crack prone, too soft, and it will wear soon. Each unit is hand fitted to the stock shaft, after it has been machined to accept the wider blade, so there are no external changes necessary.
    To those gentlemen that posted saying much as i have , thanks, iyt appears we aerr on the same wave length,

    "Kermit did a nice job on it but I just can't believe that ferrari could have made that big a mistake on something so basic. Removing the entire stock FI system and converting to carbs or EFI is only good for about 35hp. Honestly, I might believe there's 10 hp going to the bigger throttle boby, a K&N and replacing the ribbed hose with a smooth bore hose but 40??? It looks great anyway, and I hope the dyno proves me wrong....it wouldn't be the first time...."
    MK E, I don't believe that they would create that much power either. It would be ludicrous to think that just a larger TB, and some sheilds would give you 300 horse by themselves, as many can attest reaching that 300 mark is not an easy trick.
    Ferrari was faceing environm,ental restrictions, not everything they did in good faith at the time is a good idea now, sodium valves is an excellent example.
    However, on to of well ported heads, cams, exhaust, etc. It sure won't slow it down! Please bear in mind my original focus was to improve the stock flow, reasonably. I feel that has been accomplished. Russ for example has had to put literally hundreds of hours into his car. the results speak for themselves. That level is not everyones dream.
    On the smoother intake tube, samples are perfected, prodtion jigs, etc done, so it will be released shortly, Carbon Fiber, Custom stainless clamps. etc. I allways hated that "tractor hose" they used. I think I'm gonna take a look at why we still use the vertical shaft on the 2 valve TB next, as it seems to me that it may act like a rudder on a boat, sending flow to one side.
    Newman, I agree completely
    As to the Cam issue, I just happen to be close to fire up on a NYC based '85 Quattro, with porting, 70mm etc, I'llpost as soon as I can.

    On a tongue in cheek side, these aren't the only ones out there!
    As there is no way to tell that the stock TB is much larger from the outside, it just looks like you had it reubuilt or maybe just cleaned.
    With this in mind, no one wants to admit it, so referalls are a problem as my clients usally kinda like to keep quiet.
    sorry if I rambled a bit, it's been another long day.
    Enjoy the ride,
    Kermit
     
  22. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Ok, so i measured the 308 QV metering unit outlet to throttle.....it's 68mm at best, maybe more like 67.5, but the casting is pretty rough.

    I measured the throttle body at butterflyto be 66mm exactly, despite it being officially a 65mm.

    So your 70mm throttle body will definitely see an improvement in air flow, but I wouldn't hold your breath on any tyre squealing activity to be generated.

    Keep us posted, as any gain is worthwhile.

    If you have the urge for more advance, and don't want to spend big bucks, you can get your flywheel pegs moved a few degrees by a machine shop.

    Ignition advance will only give more power if your fuel quality allows.

    Tune it to be on the rich side too. About 1.2%CO to 1.5% should be OK.
     
  23. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    Spoke to Mike at QV of London (very friendly, very helpful) this am about their qv kjet camshafts. While he does not remember the specs from the hopped up 328 camshafts he did 10 years ago, he said they mainly focused on lift with very little change in duration. He also said that they would email me the specs if they could find them.

    More as it develops.
     
  24. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

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    Adding a small amount of lift to the cams will do the most good--BUT--beware--you may have to do some machining to the heads so the cam lobes will not hit the casting around the "buckets".

    also -- I am wondering if the springs have much room left before full compression--enough for more lift that is? or will they bottom out too early-and lock-up
     
  25. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    So, was there a dyno run with this setup? How did the TB mods perform?
     
  26. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

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    Kermit--how did you get the correct angle on the new butterfly flapper? and what is the actual diameter of it--i assume just larger than 70 mm since it should seat at an angle.

    actually--i guess it is not round is it? did you trim the flapper on the sides some?
    Charles
     

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