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Proposal to make F1 more exciting...

Discussion in 'F1' started by Brian C. Stradale, Apr 4, 2004.

  1. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Some have lamented that you don't get more points for winning a race.

    Many have lamented there being too little passing action up front.

    Here's a proposal that fixes both those things, making for a little more excitement, especially later in the race:

    If you lap a points position, you get that position's points in addition to your own!

    So, for example, if MS is in first, and he laps all places up to (but not including) 5th place, then he finishes 1st and 6th and gets both points (10+3=13 points). If someone else is in 7th and then RB has lapped all places up to (but not including) 7th, then he gets 2nd and 8th and gets both points (8+1=9 points).

    What would this do? First, it would award some extra points for dominating wins. But far more importantly, it would add a lot of excitement to the races as we get to see the great drivers like MS show their passing skill...

    As it is now, drivers generally just let MS pass when he's lapping them. So, for MS, the race is basically just a solo sprint away from the rest of the cars. Add this, and now, at least from about position 10 forward, the cars will not want to be lapped and lose points... so, it becomes a race. Now, MS might not be willing to be super-aggressive, risking 10 points and a victory to get an extra 1 or 2, but he'll have to stalk waiting for them to make a mistake and take advantage of it.

    If you get the top 3 or so places wading up to that point, now the leader has to decide to be aggressive to lap drivers based on whether hanging back is allowing 2nd and 3rd to catch up.

    One minor benefit is that the mathematical elimination point is delayed as the maximum points for a race is technically very high. Practically, its not so... but not impossible... however an 11 or 12 point race is not unreasonable.

    Net result: lots more meaningful passing... see top drivers' skill more often... more points for big wins... but still about the same in "mathematical elimination"...

    Too crazy an idea??
     
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  3. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
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    Rob Guess
    Brian,

    Why not just reverse the grid and for each position gained on the track after the first lap has been completed gains 1 point then award points for 1- 8 like normal.

    That would make a race exciting.

    Rob
     
  4. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
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    True, but it would completely overhaul the notion of a race... crossing the checkered flag first would have no bearing... the normal tactics for establishing a lead and protecting that lead would be gone... it would be completely foreign to any "normal" notion of a car race.

    Further, it might generate too much excitement as there would be too much passing as the fast cars from the back quickly catch the slow cars from the front... they are all trying to pass each other all at once... the first few laps would be absolute chaos...

    Race tactics would be mostly about whether to hang back and avoid the melee... or to maybe time when you want to work through the major clashes...

    My proposal above is designed to leave the notion of a race mostly the same as today, but add some more passing at the front and more passing later in the race. Minor evolution rather than complete revolution.
     
  5. ty (360mode)

    ty (360mode) Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2002
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    Tim
    here's my take: i think the racing IS very interesting. the problem lies more in the presentation. i love the on camera views and replays where you really see how the drivers are jockeying for position, running wheel to wheel, differences in sterring technique/input, etc. when they only show the wide pan views, it looks like they're just cruising around, doesn't accurately depict how much is going on. even when there isn't an actual pass, seeing the setups can be just as interesting - if presented properly.

    maybe take some things from nascar (yikes, did i just say that???) like the throttle/brake charts, more frequent tach info, g's, etc... one thing nascar does do well is put people IN the car. maybe it's just me but that certainly adds interest, at least in terms of watching it on tv.
     
  6. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
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    I agree with what you say there about presentation. Split-screen in-car and exterior views with an overlay of throttle, brake, speed, and RPM would be sweet. Someday in the future, we'll have the bandwidth such that each person can flip among driver views of their own accord. That would be a great use of all those DirecTV channels... one for each driver.

    Another thing they could do presentation-wise is open up the conversations between pit and driver... of course, you have to prevent the other teams from listening in, but it would make it much more exciting to know when a driver is worried about his brakes or debating whether to come in due to a handling problem or whatever.

    Again... as you said... get the audience into the drivers' cars.
     
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  8. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 3, 2002
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    You guys know my opinion on this: Reverse the grid (thanks Rob for joining my side!).

    But at this stage I'm so bored with F1 that I'd basically accept ANYTHING to make it better. And I bet Bernie sees it that way too.

    At least the TV director in Bahrain was smart enough to show us the many battles in the mid field. I bet the next race (Imola) will be a total bore: The director will feel the need to show the dominating Ferraris and we'll see MS do parade laps for 90 minutes.

    If you want a quick fix, reverse the grid. If you want a thourough fix, ban the aeros, allow as many engines and tires per weekend as you like. Standardize the brakes and bring back the slicks. There will be passing in abundance.

    The notion about the onboard cameras is very true though: Show the telemetry, heck make even the audio channels public and add remotely controlled cameras to the cars (a la NASCAR). That will go a long way.
     
  9. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,661
    Ban all the aerodynamic devices, and unregulate everything else except a) tire width front and rear b) engine displacement, c) safety related minimum weights d) keep the suspension teathers.

    No need to regulate brakes--without aerodynamic loads, the brakes are far better now than the wheel traction would stress in the future.

    No need to regulate wheel diameter--this is there to keep brake technology in check.

    No need to regulate engine power,... without aerodynamic loading, the 900 HP will be practically undrivable.

    Without aerodynamic loadings, slip angles will increase and the audience will be able to see the drivers driving. Braking distances go up 3X-5X, cornering speeds go down 50%, acceleration distances go up 2X-4X. Giving plenty of time to droive around a competitor.
     
  10. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I see you thought that through. And I like the less regulation, that's always beneficial.

    But here comes the though question: How do you ban aeros? Ok, no wings. Fine, but how do you define a bodywork that has no negative lift? Do you prescribe a flat under bed (like now, but covering the entire body) or define car shape?
     
  11. Fan512bbi

    Fan512bbi Two Time F1 World Champ
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    In british touring cars every time a car wins a lead weight is added for the next race, result 5 drivers fighting for the championship only 3 points seperating them, could very easily be implemented in F1
     
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  13. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Yep, I think you'd need to spec the shape/dimensions of the car. Then designers can engineer whatever they can within those dimensions.

    With that, the FIA can decide just how much downforce they want to allow to balance making the races more interesting vs. keeping F1 fast relative to the other forms of racing.

    Lots of investment in wind tunnels would become relatively useless.
     
  14. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Thinking about it, actually one way to enforce the zero negative lift body (or whatever the new rules would deman) could be a wind tunnel for the FIA: Just like they test now the new chassis in pre season crash tests, they could demand from the teams to deliver a body for the FIA wind tunnel and the FIA could measure the lift itself.

    That would at least keep some CFD folks and one wind tunnel "employed".
    :)
     
  15. owsi

    owsi Karting

    Dec 7, 2003
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    Matt
    Why do we need to change the rules all around? I realize that the races are a bit boring right now, but is that really the fault of the present rules? Think about today's race, if the fight between Alonso and Webber had been for P1, instead of for some mid-pack spot, everyone would probably feel much different about the race. If Williams had any real pace and McClaren didn't keep going BOOM, things would be a lot more interesting. What would happen if Renault had some more power? Even with all of these things there still might not be much passing for the lead, but you know what? For me, that is just fine. I would much rather watch one or two passes that really mean something, then a bunch that don't, ie. NASCAR. Its like the difference between soccer(football for our European members) and basketball. They run up and down the court all day in b-ball and score points. Yay. In soccer it is often a struggle to get just one, but man, when they do; GOOOOAAAAAAL! Anyway, that is just how I feel about it. If you want more exciting races root for the other "top" teams to get their sh-t together.

    Just my .02
     
  16. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Sorry that is not racing. That results in sandbagging and other BS, and just makes a joke out of competition. I really hate race series that do that.

    Imagine being an engineer or a test driver for such a race series. You eventually would get pissed off at being knocked back for doing the work that has made you successful, while the d!ckheads in the grid that cannot drive or engineer a car to save their life get incentives, ie. just wait for a few races and eventually the good teams will be slowed to make us look good.

    Pathetic IMO!

    Pete
     
  17. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
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    F1 cars are so weight senseitivo that would wreck almost any chance of finishing well. It's a good I dea but you can only add a few pounnds or you will off set the power to weight distribution and also makke the car slower in accelerating braking cornering and top speed.

    As for reverse grids. Faster cars at the back will have slower cars blocking. Webber will zig zag from one side of the track to the other. I am losing piles of respect for him. Block king = dangerous leader. Fine him now and put an end to it. Not only the cause for fatal wrecks but also drivers losing their noses. How would you like to drive a lap with no nose then lose 30 secs, stopped in pit lane. How would that make things better? Keep the ideas flowing I'm just pointing out facts. And as for my ideas, they are just variations on others ideas and 2 of my own that are too off the cuff to mention.
     
  18. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,661
    You use the concept of a convex hull. The body can be of any shape whatsoever as long as it has a convex hull in 3 dimensions. The derivative of the direction vector of any surface in all directions remains positive. This basically prevents using the body shape to generate aero, but if the aero guys can make a blimp generate downforce--go for it.
     
  19. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    How about one shell fits all?
    No mods to the wings or body. We could do a lot to slow the cars down. But I for one don't watch F1 because they are slow. I watch because they are fast! If you add too many "you can't do this" rules, then the true race fans will leave. I agree F1 needs changes but you can't leap into the unknown. You have to try a few little things and even run it by everyone on F1 to get opinions and different views. I'm all for change, just as long as it "improves" the sport. That doesn't mean making Ferrari pit every second lap.
     
  20. ferrari_kid

    ferrari_kid Formula Junior

    Jul 5, 2003
    768
    some of these suggestions are going to make F1 like Cart or IRL. the points thing is interesting. but what happens when MS starts lapping all the way up to 3rd and he wins halfway through the season again? i think that's when F1 started to go downhill was when Ferrari and MS started doing stuff like that.

    i thought Bahrain was interesting. lots of midfield action. i'm curious to see if the rest of the year turns out that way too; with BAR and Renault battling McLaren and BMW.
     
  21. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
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    They could just develop the telemetry systems and then award Kudos points like PGR2 for cool slides, drafting, good lines, clean sections w/o hitting anything, etc. 1-8th place gets a bigger Kudos bonus, and time bonuses over the other finishers.

    :D
     
  22. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    I was thinking of getting rid of the telemetry systems. So they can't make adjustments from pit lane. It's an idea but as for making things better? I guess not. How about making the cars tow a wagon with a big rock in it? If it falls out, you have to stop and pick it up. :) O, wait, we wouldn't want to give Kimi a weapon! :) hehehe
     
  23. vincent355

    vincent355 F1 Veteran
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    I've been enjoying the season so far. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of Ferrari and like to see them win every two weeks, but I've been paying more attention this year to the rest of the field...

    basically there is a great race for third. So if you pretend third is first then things become more exciting again. The coverage this week was great in that they showed the mid pack battles. I do agree that more in car coverage and being let in to some of the mysteries would make it more attractive. I watch NASCAR once in a while (I like anything with four wheels and a motor) and it is fun to be let in everywhere including some of the communications. F1 would definitely benefit, instead we have to listen to three guys guessing at most everything.

    What if they rebroadcasted with more stuff included, this way teams couldn't spy in real time. Or at the very least do a half hour show that is more inside stuff, or focuses on one team or car.
     
  24. ferrari_kid

    ferrari_kid Formula Junior

    Jul 5, 2003
    768
    I'd like to see more coverage outside of race day. They have a half hour section of F1 stuff before races but that's all I see. I'm surprised the American public knows F1 exists half the time. I'm sure it's different outside of the US though.

    F1 seems a bit too up tight to disclose radio broadcasts during a race. Even if you were to rebroadcast it later what happens if there is information divulged that could help out a team later? Don't know what that could be, but it's a possibility. I can see NASCAR doing it because they're busy talking about debris and traffic. I don't really hear them talking about strategy. But didn't they allow some open communication during the first USGP at Indy? It don't think it was between the top teams.
     
  25. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
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    Well, he might accumulate points a bit faster... but mathematically, a driver could earn 39 points a weekend (by finishing 9 laps up on the field). So, mathematical elimination halfway through would be practically impossible. Practical elimination might come a bit faster... but think of all the great battles as MS tried to make that happen.
     
  26. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    I agree with Ryan about the 1/2 hour of events surrounding race-day. I think it would add something to the material (not that SpeedVision has any competition) and would help with the "flavor" of each different race.

    --Dan
     
  27. Fan512bbi

    Fan512bbi Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Pete totaly agree with you but short of blinfolding MS, what chance have the other teams got. PS MS would still win.
     
  28. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    My rule:Everybody who laps a points position gets those points, but the point position gets them also. And if you pass a points position twice, you get his points twice (etc.).

    So a totally dominating run (2 laps on the field) will garner 68 points. This does two things, in the last race of the season, a totally dominating run can catch and pass the then current front runner unless he has a massive lead; in addition, it allows one to build a massive lead with a single dominating run.

    If the second place car also passes a points position, he also gets those points. This gives Rubens a reason to stick close.

    So, instead of MS lapping 5th palce and then allowing them to unlap themselves as he cruises around at 10 seconds off the pace, MS would continue charging up through the pack, gaining more and more points.
     

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