360 - PSA...20 year olds.... | FerrariChat

360 PSA...20 year olds....

Discussion in '360/430' started by Ghostdiver, Nov 28, 2023.

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  1. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
    Full Name:
    Wally Hollar
    Next month, my car turns 25 years old, so this is a PSA for all the new owners of these 20 something year old toys as well as a reminder to the ones that have had theirs for a while.

    Make a plan to check your fuses and relays on a regular basis or you might get an unwelcome surprise.
    Also, pay attention to any strange or odd situations that suddenly pop up and don't dismiss them.

    My car has a slow HVAC leak that seeps maybe a half pound a year. Just enough to make the AC struggle to keep up in the "warm" Texas summers. Being a 99 model, accessing the HVAC ports requires taking the covers off in the boot, rather than the later model ones that can access the ports near the master cylinder. Anyway, my point is, the cover along with the fuse panel cover were off just a few months ago and nothing was out of the ordinary. The parking/dipped light (LH/F) recently went out but I can't say when but it was this year. That was the only thing out of the ordinary that has occurred with the car.

    This past week, I started doing my annual including flushing my brake fluid. I bled the brakes already, but the pedal still is a little spongy. So, today, I decided to bleed the master cylinder just for S&G. So, I started to pull the panels out in the frunk/boot/child compartment and found a surprise...

    The melted orange thing is what was the 40amp fuse for the RH radiator fan which I believe is/was still working despite the condition of the "fuse." It's also of note that the fuse for the dipped lights is also in this area. So, if I would have checked it, maybe I would have found the melted pile of orange plastic. Still to be checked are the relays also in this area. There doesn't appear to be any wiring damage but there will some additional checks going down to the radiator fan....

    Bottom line is now the "newest" 360 out there are 19 years old with the majority in the mid 20's. Now that doesn't sound that bad when talking about a good scotch, bourbon, or girlfriend. However, as much as we love the 20-year-old stuff, they can be temperamental and full of surprises, so be sure to check them out carefully to see if they've gone bad!
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  2. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
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    May 20, 2018
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    Scary! Good catch!
     
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  3. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 26, 2017
    677
    Northern AZ.
    Very glad you caught that in time.!
    From the appearance your fan circuit is not shorted since the fuse is intact but could be consuming high amperage to operate...thats why its melted badly.
    Get a amperage test on that circuit, compare to LH fan circuit for good comparison.
    Thanks for sharing this if possible pls update with your observations.
     
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  4. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula 3
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    May 25, 2019
    1,854
    Memphis, TN
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    John
    Since the fuse didn't blow, and the fan is still working, I suspect that there's corrosion in the fuse holder and that's where the high resistance is, hence the heat, hence the melted plastic without blowing the fuse.
     
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  5. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 World Champ
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    Jul 8, 2016
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  6. clean512

    clean512 Formula 3

    Feb 4, 2010
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    Josh @jtcarprojects
    Wow... good ketch on that
     
  7. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
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    Curt
    This. first thought is the fan motor may have an issue.
     
  8. Sj_engr

    Sj_engr Formula 3

    Sep 15, 2020
    1,624
    San Jose
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    dc
    Replacing all the relays is relatively inexpensive ($60-$120) and Deoxit D5 probably a good idea too.
     
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  9. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
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    Wally Hollar
    Latest update.
    Checked the RH/LH fan relays and they showed no issues.
    Checked for voltage (Key on/Engine off). Removed Maxi fuses. Power present at Maxi fuse holder (4A) on S1A circuit feeding both fuses and 5A mini ATO fuse.
    Checked resistance on both fan motors for comparison as well as short to ground. Both good.
    Turned power off at Master and checked for open/continuity on circuit.

    On S1A @ 4A, I have continuity to ground. Spot checked all front fuse boxes. One next to Maxi fuses has continuity to ground on all circuits. Other two fuse boxes have none.
    Did the "wiggle" test on the harness....no change. disconnected the large round connector at the bulkhead and checked the harness separately. No continuity on S1A. Tried to check the male pins in the stationary connector to see but I wasn't able to get it loose/see in there.

    From what I can gather from the wonderful wiring diagrams, S1A on connector 10A changes to 1C on connector 10B going into the cabin. That is the power supply (AC system joint) - 4C 1C-RV. That was the end of my adventures for the day.



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  10. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

    Feb 5, 2014
    2,782
    Thanks for bringing this up but I will disagree a little :) The moral of the story is don't let minor issues persist as they normally turn in to bigger issues.

    The root cause is persistent low A/C refrigerant level. The HVAC module will engage the radiator fans to help cool the condenser when the car is stationary or when the system is not functioning within optimal parameters. With low refrigerant and high ambient temperatures the rad fans will be working overtime in order to bring the AC system within its optimal range, but of course it's a loosing battle.

    In this case I would be loathed to blame Ferrari or 20 year old electrics; as an example the same thing will happen to the starter circuit if trying to turn over the engine for an extended period.
     
  11. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
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    Wally Hollar
    #11 Ghostdiver, Nov 30, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2023
    Point taken but I just to clarify a little more. I'm not blaming Ferrari or 20-year-old electronics specifically. This could have happened to any vehicle at any age. However, the chances increase as the cars get older and parts begin to fail. My overall point was actually to not overlook the obvious. I do disagree with the leaking coolant theory, however. The way the system is designed, the fans kick on due to pressure and not temperature in regard to the HVAC system. With the freon leak, that kept the pressures from building up in the system, which in turn would have prevented the fans from running to a point of drawing too many amps.

    I have had the car since 2015, and outside of the well-known alternator issue, I've never had an electrical issue, much less a fuse melted into a pile of goo. Less than three months ago, the fuse panel was pulled off and there was no sign of a problem. So, whatever occurred happened recently. Sometime recently, the left dipping light also went out. Bulb is good...no power to the socket but right rear dipping/parking lights are fine.

    So, the moral of the story is the same, but it needs to be looked at in its full context and any issues that are not ordinary, should be looked into and a diagnosed. The only thing that I didn't due was determine why the left dipping light was out. Maybe related, maybe not.
     
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  12. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
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    Pretty sure I said the same thing in the original post, but I speak Texan so there's that....:)
     
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  13. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
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    I looked for corrosion...but I think it got burned away! :D
     
  14. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Formula Junior
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    Feb 26, 2017
    677
    Northern AZ.
    You're assessment of the HVAC system in regards to loss of refrigerant and pressure is spot on.! Unless I missed it somewhere we still do not know the current consumption of that circuit...Those pictures are screaming overheating..which equals too many amps being drawn.
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,122
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
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    Brian Crall
    #15 Rifledriver, Nov 30, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2023
    Bingo.

    See it all the time when load is too high but not high enough to blow fuse. Most circuits run at half or less of fused capacity. When they are running 3/4 or more its going to be a problem.

    Id put an amp meter on it and measure it. Then measure another car. When electrical components get long in the tooth they draw higher current. Can also be caused by too high a duty cycle but less common for sure.

    Very common in the older cars with inline Bosch fuel pumps.
     
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  16. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
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    Wally Hollar
    That was my first thought as well. Wanted to double check the harness though since I've seen too many harnesses subject to movement, vibration, and age to cause some strange issues when troubleshooting.
     
  17. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

    Feb 5, 2014
    2,782
    When is a Bosch fuel pump on the same circuit as a fad fan?
     
  18. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
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    Wally Hollar
    It's not...at least in my car. Think he was just commenting about the style of pump being prone to increasing amp draws the older it gets.
     
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  19. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
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    Wally Hollar
    Finally was able to do this. After I "repaired" the harness...not a Ferrari SpA approved BTW, I was able to check the RH fan motor to see what it was doing. The circuit is on a 40 amp fuse, as evident of the pile of melted orange mess that was a fuse at one point...although it didn't technically blow. You can see from the picture of the failed fuse holder there was a significant amount of heat being generated in that circuit.

    23.31 amps at startup
    13.41 amps running

    The harness was repaired with LittleFuse Maxi fuse holders that have a large brass contact surface and aluminum crimp lugs in two different sizes. There was another holder from Blue Sea Systems that I wanted to use but that would have required a complete remake of the front fuse panels as they are significantly larger than the original connector. Instead, I went with the ones from LittleFuse that are still larger and more robust than the original but able to be placed in the original location with a custom bracket. I'm all for leaving things original, however, as evidence of the melted fuse holder, I believe that the overall design contributed to the failure by using smaller lugs. This combined with the system design and the excessive temps this past summer contributed to the problem.
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  20. FerrfanFL

    FerrfanFL Formula 3
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    Feb 8, 2021
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    that's stinking scary....
     
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  21. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
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    My non-Ferrari approved repair job or the Ferrari fire starter? :D
     
  22. FerrfanFL

    FerrfanFL Formula 3
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    Feb 8, 2021
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    the ferrari fire starter.....omg....
     
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  23. zstyle

    zstyle Formula Junior

    Jun 28, 2007
    552
    Tempe
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    Jon
    If you haven’t already, I would suggest looking at the fuel pumps and plastic top regulators. Being 20yrs old, the plastic can crack leading to fuel leaks. Same goes for the plastic fuel roll over valves. Notorious for cracking in the Az heat.
     
  24. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
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    Wally Hollar
    Funny you should mention that as I just had my face right over each of the fuel pumps while pulling the plugs....more on that later. Fuel pumps looked good BTW.
     
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  25. collegeboy

    collegeboy Formula 3
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    Aug 25, 2007
    1,372
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    Mikey
    What color are they? White or a cream yellow? If white, just replace them with the new ones. The plastic is different and not prone to cracking.
     

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