Purchase help with 365GT BB

I'm currently considering a 365GT BB for sale here in Australia from the local Ferrari dealer. Following is the description of the car, with a link to the online advertisement.
"This rare and histoical 365 GT BB is the road version of the famous winning F1 312 Ferrari's of the 1970's, made famous by Niki Lauder and Villeneuve. It boasts a 4.4 L 12 cylinder Boxer engine and features an updated 512 diff, all new stainless steel valves, new guides and stem seals, new cam belts & tension bearings. Nothing has been left to chance! Magnificent vehicle - inspection is imperitive. "

http://www.drive.com.au/used_cars/ferrari/365/melbourne/detail.aspx?id=1802829&pg=2&pp=6&d=0

I'm considering the car as a weekend/track day purchase and will probably update the wheels/springs to accept modern low profile rubber and change the seats to Recaro or Sparco sport/race items. (keeping the originals of course).
Is there anything I need to be aware of looking at this car?

Thanks in advance.

Stephen

 

Great car in theory, (but a bit pricey at 175K and could easily spend 30-50 making it "right" if it's not already), and DONT try to make it handle like a modern car, it's a classic, and what makes them great is the way they slide so forgivingly and respond to driver input so sensitively.

Enjoy the fact that power outweighs grip. If you try to put grippy tyres on it, you'll expose the poor clutch and brakes and get oil surge from the wet sump. Then if you fix that you'll expose the chassis flex, then if you fix that you may as well buy a 360......

I've got a 512BB for sale at KHPC... (how do you do links?)

http://ecardata.resolutesystems.co.uk/khpc/Action.Lasso?-database=ecar2dta&-response=cardtlpge.html&-layout=Data&-sortField=Price&-sortOrder=descending&-op=bw&-LogicalOperator%20value='&-op=bw&-Operator%20value='=='&-op=bw&DealerNumber=1038&-maxRecords=1&-skipRecords=31&-search


and you can have it for $120K AU) and I reckon they're a bit better, mainly because it's got dry sump and more torque, and less aero lift. But I love 365 BB too.

 

What use is a car in Melbourne that can do 103kmh in 1st gear, due to its higher revs.......!!

Drive both 365 and 512 before committing.

512 is quicker in all areas, as are all of Ferrari's progressive models over their predecessors. And is a nicer everyday driver.

Aero lift of 365 at 200kmh + is scary. Front spoiler to blame. Can retro fit a 512 but may as well buy a 512, but that's just my opinion.

Cable operated single plate clutch is a tiresome expensive thing to keep operating and replacing. 512 has hydraulic twin plate and is much nicer in regular use. 512 also has better cooling system / more fans, but 365 "should" be ok too, as long as all in good shape.

I have 2 customers here that may let you drive their 512's if you can't find one for sale/test drive.

 

Apparently Sandro has done all the work on the car, however I think 130-150K is a more appropriate price for the car, which I am lead to believe is achievable. I'm not looking to make it handle like a 360 Challenge, just looking at a more charachterfull alternative as a fun car.
I think the relative rarity of the 365 outweighs the practical improvements in the 512, but I can still be conviced otherwise. I'm also more inclined to want a car that revs, as the V12TT Merc has all the torque I need.

 

Thanks, food for thought, I think I need to spend a bit of time in one first. The Boxer was the first F car I really lusted after, being a teen around the time of the 512. Maybe it's just a romantic notion, I am after a less civilised, lighter, harder edged alternative to the 550, that's a ball to drive. All this, without having to worry about it blowing up and leaving me stranded somewhere on the inland route between Lorne and Melbourne!
Do you think the Boxer fits the job description?
BTW how did your response to my 2nd post end up in front of mine?

 

Hi

I bought my 365 3-4 years ago and the only drama I had was blowing a water house on a very spirited run up the old pacific highway to Mt White. If you are ever in Sydney you could have a look at mine for comparison. Don't believe what the 512 guys tell you, the 365 is THE collectible boxer(in my biased opinion!). I am led to believe that it accelerates faster than a 512 but has a slightly lower top end speed. The book by Mel Nichols (Ferrari Berlinetta Boxer) has some useful info.
Goodluck

 

IMO the Boxers are the last of the true Ferraris, they are very spartan compared to the modern cars with nothing of driver aids, basically a light chassis with a huge race bred flat 12 making incredible sounds no modern Ferrari can match, its like driving a late 60s race car, the whole car moves from the torque when sitting and revving the engine, its quite intoxicating hearing it right behind you.

Dave F on ftalk site gas a 365BB with modern wheels and tires, he changed them because he was tired of sourcing the TRX tires, I personally will not change my wheels on my BB as they fit the car perfectly, my car is being painted and had both front and rear decklids off, the tires and look reminded me of a mid 60s F1 Ferrari, I like the way the car handles with them its fun sliding all over from throttle input and hard cornering, just part of the cars charm.

To answer you question yes they are very reliable but are an old car so little things will happen and they will have their quirks being such a limited production totally hand made car of about 10 a month at the time vs the modern robot made cars produced and designed in mass production.

 

BB's don't have TRX tyres, well only 512BBi, certainly not 365.

365 and 512 have XWX as std and yes, they are hard to source too, and expensive. But there are other 15" options.

I run Pirelli P7R on the rear and P600 on front in wider sizes with close to std rolling circumference.

I guess a 365 owner will tell you they are best and a 512 owner will tell you they are best.....

Well, I've spent many hours with numerous examples of both cars, I get paid by others to fix and drive their cars, and the car I CHOSE to buy was a 512, because in all the hours I've spent working on and driving Ferrari's, the 512 is the most rewarding to drive...for me. But I DO love 365 too, but the 512 is better and quicker everywhere, without being less "Hard".

As for BBi, I'd rather have a TRossa thanks.

Yes, a BB is the perfect car for the inland roads, absolutely.

Oh, and just to undo your concerns about rarity, there were only 101 RH Drive 512BB's built, and many of them have been "lost" so I think were' down to about 80...

 

I'd be interested to see the real weight difference between the 365 and 512BB's. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information regarding this. If, when similarly spec'd, they are roughly the same, then the 512 would seem the smarter buy.

 

Well I have'nt bought any for 2 years, but 275/55/15 P7R on rear, and 235/60/15 on Front.

Got them near London.

The 512 is not necessarity the smarter buy, but it is the better car in terms of driver involvement and enjoyment...in my opinion!

There are other options too, but not many R compound. BF Goodridge Comp TA is one.

 

on what rims do u run those p7s on your 512.....stock rims?.....r u running stock ride height?....any occasional rubbing over bumps or lock to lock?......can we get some pics?

 

GENTLEMEN IF I MAY....365 BB'S AND 512BB,S SHARE 95% OF THE SAME PARTS.....SO HOW DIFFERENT CAN THEY REALLY BE????....THOSE OF US THAT KNOW BETTER KNOW THAT THERE ARE 365BB OUT THERE THAT WILL BE QUICKER THAN SOME 512 IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS AND 512'S THAT WILL BE QUICKER .....AND KNOW NOT BET ON WHAT MOST CAR PUBLICATIONS HAVE TO SAY... AT THE END OF THE DAY EITHER OR WILL BE QUICKER BY ONLY AFEW 10THS BE IT STANDING KM OR LAP TIME.....HANDLING +OR - BY 0.01 TO 0.03 G'S,BRAKING 80KM- 0 OR 60KM-0 A FEW FEET EITHER WAY......512BB HAVE THEIR UPDATED IMPROVEMENTS AND 365BB HAVE THEIR ADVANTAGES (ALITTLE LIGHTER , HIGHER.REDLINE,ETC)...SO LETS ALL TAKE OUR DICKS OFF THE TABLE PUT THEM BACK IN OUR PANTS AND PUT OUR MEASURING TAPES AWAY .LOL ......JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION AND FEEL FREE TO CORRECT ME IF IAM WRONG....FORZA BERLINETTA BOXERS

 

What is the VIN? Let me know and I'll check the database of Boxers I maintain.

Lee

#27001

 

Stock rims all round. Stock springs too, but shocks stiffened a bit on both bump and rebound, in the valving not just adjustment.

No rubbing, but slight understeer due to no R compound on front. Overcome most of this with set up and "Technique" !! Flick it around with lots of straight line regressive braking and power early.

UK 512's are lighter than US I believe, and not much heavier than 365. Sports exhaust removes 30kg instantly!, but same for either car of course.

 

There were no US model Boxers. All Boxers imported into the US had to be privately converted to meet US safety and emissions standards, which added weight; however, many of these cars have been reconverted back to Euro spec.

 

do u have any pics of your bb with wider tires?

 

#17867. Thanks in advance for this.

Stephen

 

For photo's, Paste this link into your address line, I don't know why the proper link system doesn't work.

http://ecardata.resolutesystems.co.uk/khpc/Action.Lasso?-database=ecar2dta&-response=cardtlpge.html&-layout=Data&-sortField=Price&-sortOrder=descending&-op=bw&-LogicalOperator%20value='&-op=bw&-Operator%20value='=='&-op=bw&DealerNumber=1038&-maxRecords=1&-skipRecords=31&-search


But It really doesn't look much different to standard. The rears are only a squarer profile, and fronts look no different at all.

The std XWX are much narrower than the rims and you could put a 295 or wider on the rear if you could find a suitable tyre.

But I don't want anymore grip than I've got.

 

Hi Phil

My 365 runs 15x7.5 rims all round. It currently has XWX tyres which will need replacing at some stage. How wide a tyre do you think I could get away with at the rear with the 7.5rims (I assume you have 15x9in rims at the rear of your 512)

Cheers

Greg
#17915

 

You'd easily get a 235 to 255 on, but again, choices are tricky.

To get a 365 gripping like a 512, you really need 512 wheels on the rear.

 

thanks

Do you think 512 rims would fit a 365?

 

Absolutely. It's been done by many. Depending on local legislation, you may not even have to modify the bodywork to cover the tyre, as protrusion is "almost" negligable......

....But the 365 tends to understeer slightly more than 512 anyway, so are you sure you want more rear grip? Plus of course, the weaker 365 transmission might reject the tyres...so to speak!

 

hmmm... tyre rejection could be a serious problem!! Not sure what to do. When flat out, rear tyres lose grip in 1 to 3rd gears, but part of this might relate to relatively old(hard) tyres rather than tyre width I suppose. Anyway, thanks for your input

 

Whats the date code on your tyres.....It's almost sure to be your problem. No std road BB will break traction without major provocation (big rev and a clutch dump) on good/new tyres...too much weight over the rear.