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Quattroporte III catch-all thread

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Quattroporte3, Jun 27, 2011.

  1. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    Just a quick summary for posterity, in case anyone finds themselves looking for the same information, here's some helpful things I've managed to put together:

    aside from the talented and knowledgable individuals both here and on the (this marque name + life dot com) forum, I've gotten good advice and info from the following sources:

    http://www.allpar.com/mopar/torqueflite.html

    http://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmis...-tom-hand.html

    http://www.mopar1.us/727rebuild/

    http://maxwedge.com/articles/transmission-diagnosis.php

    http://www.727specialist.com/

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzJhCBZ1wMY[/ame]

    (great video series, and Peter at Southwest has been very helpful)

    http://www.amazon.com/Torqueflite-72.../dp/1557883998

    Hope this helps. Let me know if you find any additional resources that are helpful or invaluable.

    Cheers,
    Thor
     
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  3. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    I received a new regulator today, and had a quick question -

    from the diagram it appears that the inlet from the fuel pump and output to the carbs are on opposite sides of the unit mounted in the car.

    Are there different versions, or can it be used either way, or will I need to replace the existing fuel hoses with longer ones to reach to the opposite sides of the regulator as compared to the current install?

    Cheers,
    Thor
     
  4. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula 3

    Aug 14, 2008
    1,093
    Harriman, TN USA
    Full Name:
    Michael Demyanovich
    Hi Thor...

    Thank you for posting all the info you have been collecting, I am sure it will be useful!!!!

    I am away on business right now but will be back to my garage on Saturday... I will check
    the hoses on my 82 QPIII at the fuel filter to see how they are set up... Of course, you
    may get an answer before then!!

    Mike
     
  5. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    Hi Mike,

    so far no one has offered any advice about the filter/regulator, so please do let me know when you get back!

    Thanks,
    Thor
     
  6. Doug R

    Doug R Karting

    Oct 11, 2005
    199
    Who all supplies inner tie rod ends for the steering rack? Same as ??
     
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  8. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    Looking at the diagram of the filter, it appears that the cover (where the 6 symmetrical screws hold it in place, and the bracket mounting holes are cast on one side) only serves as a cover for the flexible diaphragm, nothing more.

    Since the inlet and outlet pipes are swapped relative to the unit installed in my car, this means I should be able to reverse the orientation of the cover, so that the inlet/outlet pipes end up in the right orientation?

    Yes?

    That would save me the effort of cutting up and installing new fuel lines if so.

    What do the mechanics of the group say? Can I do this without affecting the functioning of the unit?

    Cheers,
    Thor
     
  9. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    #32 c20500, Sep 16, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
    I pulled the rack out myself and had it rebuilt; and they just tightened up the inner tierod ends (they were really sloppy but now they're perfect) My rack was rebuilt for a grand total $110 using porsche and volvo seals.... the outer tie rods are i believe porsche 928 items. If you still need the whole thing (innner and outer), the rest of the porsche 928 rod assembly looks suspiciously the same.... just match it up with your old one...

    http://www.mailordercentral.com/928intl/prodinfo.asp?number=928%20347%20031%2001
    Regards
     
  10. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Thanks Thor for your links.. I also saw that video which is really good. I am having someone just pull it for me and have it done.

    ON an interesting side note, i know from time to time there are folks wishing for or to convert an automatic q3 to a manual one. it would take some fabrication like the maserati roadster project elsewhere on this site. I think there is an easier way though to go manual as the engine block is designed to mate with a MOpar 727.... you could bolt on a mopar manual trans A-833 Manual Overdrive Transmission,http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/drivetrain/40618_a_833_manual_transmission_swap/index.html

    although it would be a 4sp. they also make ready made bellhousing to adapt from a big/small block mopar engine to powerglide auto 2sp for drag racing or for other modern american manual alternatives., the main challenge would probably be still with the flywheel probably that the roadster guy modified the bolt pattern for but at least the bellhousing would not be as bad., of course the drive shaft would have to be shortened, etc and the mount modified. I have heard of someone installing a gear vendors electric overdrive unit on the tailhousing but you could just put the mopar 4sp auto instead model A-518......
    I think I'm just happy with the 727 frankly, and just adjust the lockup torque converter to kick in later so the shuddering will not occur as often.

    Regards
     
  11. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Regarding your exhaust Issue, it would bet that it's either the olive joint at the end of the header and or other leaks buy the 1st cat.. if it has one. the pipe there is very close to the rocker panels/ front doors. the exhaust fumes also could build up in the front firewall area if the manifolds are leaking (common for older ones with air injection manifolds encased with the heat shielding). just carefully hold your hand near the olive joint to see if it's leaking with the car runing... i put some burning incense from that joint to check for leaks in the manifolds and to see if smoke seeps through.... The other way I checked my Merak for exhaust leaks was to hook up a halloween smoke generator to the end of the exhaust pipe and check for smoke elsewhere... u need to plug the other side though.
    Regards
     
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  13. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula 3

    Aug 14, 2008
    1,093
    Harriman, TN USA
    Full Name:
    Michael Demyanovich
    Hi Thor...

    Sorry for the delay... I just checked my QPIII.... Mine is the same way as yours,
    the outlet to the carbs is closest to the battery, while the fuel inlet from the pump
    is closest to the front of the car... I took a few pictures, but did not post them..
    Let me know if you would like to see them!

    You may be correct in that you can reverse the fuel filter lid to reverse the inlet and
    outlet sides... Depending on the age of the unit, there may be a gasket or something
    there...

    Since no one responded, you may want to try this... The worst that can happen is you
    may have to get a new one!! Let us know what you find, if you do attempt to rotate it..

    Mike
     
  14. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    #36 Quattroporte3, Sep 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Mike,

    unfortunately it won't work. I had a closer look at it, and as it turns out the current filter design has the outlet side coming off at a right angle, i.e. horizontally instead of vertically as is the inlet pipe.

    Meaning that by reversing the lid I'd end up with the output pipe pointing straight at the inner fender well :-(.

    The current filter is in fact a mirror image of the one installed in the car. I didn't notice when I ordered, but maybe they make two versions. I'll have to check that.

    In the meantime, new fuel lines will have to be cut and installed, unless I can find one with the opposite configuration.

    Thanks for checking though!

    Thor
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  15. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Just an update on the Transmission in my 80' 4porte. I had it fully rebuilt along with the torque converter and it's a world of difference. much smoother and the lock up happens later and it's hard to tell when it kicks in. 31 years of time, no matter the miles, takes it's toll on seals/friction/rubber/non metallic parts. The cooler lines were also replaced as they were brittle.

    The removal was straight forward as most looking at the adjustable mounts did not realized that they just drop down. The exhaust or the drive shaft did not even have to be removed. budget around $1200-1600 if you have someone do it all.
     
  16. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    Thanks for the update -

    after reading the 727 handbook and going through the videos I was beginning to feel pretty confident about the actual rebuild, but was dreading pulling/installing the transmission. I'm very happy to read what you wrote here, hopefully it will be easier than I had feared. The prices I've gotten here want $1k for removal, $1k for installation, and another $1.5-2k for overhaul. Thus my interest in doing it myself :) (plus the fact that I like working on cars)

    Can I ask if you installed any upgrades? Shift kit, modified bands, heavy duty clutch plates, modified kickdown ratio, etc?

    Do you notice any more power to the wheels/pavement & better acceleration after the rebuild? That's one of my main hopes, as the car seems very sluggish when accelerating, it just takes forever to catch up with itself (and the traffic around it).

    Also, there has been some debate as to whether the QP3 uses the lockup converter that Chrysler implemented on the Torqueflite in 1979 or not, and if the torque converter and flex plate are Chrysler standard or Maserati specific. Could you let us know what you found on yours? That would help a lot.

    Best regards,
    Thor


     
  17. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Thor,
    The transmission does have a lock up torque converter (input shaft has no splines on the 1st few millimeters on the lockup type...) the problem was that it would kick in at too low of speed causing it to shudder sometimes. I decided not to install any shift kits, etc as I could install those without removing the trans again if needed later... 1st gear is a 2.45 so its not very low compared to the newer 4 or 5 sp auto boxes so it's not going to snap any necks taking off. to remove and install is $675, rebuilding another 600, + 200 to have the converter rebuilt. The flex plate is a one off to fit the maserati bolt pattern but the bell housing was describe as a chrysler with an additional starter cut away on the other side and a crude hole punched out for the timing pointer on the bottom ( I think it should have been located on the side where the starter is not on as the converter/ring gear is visible from the wheel well.)
    I consider this car a cruiser rather than a quick sports car so I'm happy with the results. It still feels quicker than a Bentley Mulsanne or Rolls Camarque of the same era that i have driven.
    Regards,
    Charles



     
  18. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    Hi Charles,

    mine shudders too, only in 3rd gear, perhaps indicating some sort of lock up problem? It's always between the same RPM's in 3rd, if I downshift at the same speed/rpm the shuddering goes away, so I'm fairly confident it's not the wheel balance nor an engine or general transmission problem (i.e. it's not present continually).

    I'm not looking to make this into a drag racer or rocket ship, it's just that it is painfully slow on acceleration. While I understand it's a 2 ton car, there's almost 300hp up front. The VW I usually drive has just about 100hp and weighs 1600kg (with a much poorer torque and power/weight ratio) and feels like a go-kart in comparison. Other big/heavy cars I've driven (any US V8 iron, Jaguar XJ6, etc) are downright race cars in comparison. Either the QP3 was designed that way (I'll never know until I drive one or two others) or there's a problem. I'm only hoping that a transmission rebuild will help improve things, not transform it into something it's not.

    Is the lock-up torque converter the standard Chrysler one as well, or did Maserati have their own made up (or modified)?

    If I were still in the US I'd probably take it to any one of the numerous 727 specialists around. Alas, prices here are insane, and automatic transmissions almost unheard of. So the few specialists around can essentially name their price (or stick to lucrative insurance repairs).

    Thanks again for your help and info, I hope it benefits everyone planning on working on their QP3 transmission.

    Cheers,
    Thor


     
  19. Thestash

    Thestash Karting

    May 8, 2011
    196
    Wappingers Falls, NY
    Full Name:
    Tony Pistachio
    Hi,
    I have a 1979 4Porte Euro Version with a 4.9 and a 5 speed. The car is in great shape. No rust and only has like 70,000 kilometers on the odometer. Its very reliable once I replaced the master & slave clutch cylinders, belts hoses water pump, rebuilt alienator and starter.

    While sitting still and idling I hear a thumping noise in time with the idle when the clutch pedal is up. All goes silent when I push it back in and hold it there. This only happens when it’s all warmed up.

    Any thoughts?
    Thanks,
    Tony
     
  20. sowest

    sowest Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2006
    899
    Hi Charles

    Thanks very much for posting the information on the odometer gears. I suspect that you have solved one of my problems. My car has been off the road for so long, I am not certain, but I think the speedometer worked, but the odometer did not. You may have identified the problem and provided the solution. Fantastic!

    Aloha
    Larry
     
  21. sowest

    sowest Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2006
    899
    Hi Tony

    Welcome to the forum. It is always good to see a new member and a new car.

    The gearbox is turning with the clutch engaged. The gearbox is not turning when the clutch is disengaged. A rhythmic noise that follows engine speed and disappears when the clutch is disengaged points to something in the gearbox. Not a pleasant thought at all.

    I think the first thing to do would be to get under the car with a stethoscope and try to locate the source of the noise.

    There are several places on my car where the exhaust is quite close to the body. I would look to make sure none of the pipes or connections are touching. I do realize that this is more likely with a cold engine (idle not as smooth) and would have no connection to the clutch. Still, adjusting the exhaust is much easier than working on the gearbox...;>)

    Aloha
    Larry

     
  22. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    #44 c20500, Oct 11, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thor,

    I would bet that the clutch pack for 3rd gear is worn as my was even with only 60k miles.... has more to do with age also as the friction material goes bad. I think the shuddering was more the 3rd gear clutch than the converter in mine. The shift kits shorten and firm up the 2-3 shift and is supposed to reduce wear (a basic 727 issue). The shop did not take any chances and just had the existing converter rebuilt ( they stamped it to make sure the same one came back ) I've included the photos of the trans after removal and the rebuilt converter.

    Regards

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  23. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    Thanks Charles,

    that helps immensely and we now have photo evidence that the 727s in QP3s use the lockup converter (shown in the photo with the transmission housing and input shaft with smooth 5/8" of end, whereas non-lockup converters have splines all the way to the end of the shaft).

    Only one question left I can think of, regarding your converter rebuild - some are balanced together with the engine ("externally balanced") while others are balanced independently, and the engine itself is in balance ("internally balanced"). They require different approaches in rebuilding and re-installing to ensure everything remains in dynamic balance from the engine through the transmission.

    Which applies to the QP3?

    Thor
     
  24. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula 3

    Aug 14, 2008
    1,093
    Harriman, TN USA
    Full Name:
    Michael Demyanovich
    Hello Larry...

    Been a while since we chatted... As usual, things have been hectic
    around here (not all necessarily good either!)... Haven't had much
    of a chance to get any car work done, but will be taking one of my
    other cars to an event this weekend!! Hope you are well and your
    projects are coming along???

    Charles/Thor...

    I know I certainly appreciate the info you are providing on the QPIII
    transmission... Please keep it coming, I think it is extremely useful
    to all us QPIII owners...

    Mike
     
  25. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Thor

    I'm sure mine was rebuilt with the converter balanced separately. The shop thought the transmission case resembled the ones Chrysler puts in Jeeps/amc that Mopars... Also, I didn't get a chance to check but the converter had "I.21" scribble on it...which may mean, input spline is 21 teeth... which is indeed oddball for a 727 (a Jeep 4x4 application that I have found so far) but not completely figured out.

    Charles

     
  26. Thestash

    Thestash Karting

    May 8, 2011
    196
    Wappingers Falls, NY
    Full Name:
    Tony Pistachio
    #48 Thestash, Oct 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Larry,
    Thanks for the info.
    The exhaust is tight. Replaced all the o ring hangers. It only happens when its been driven for a while and pretty warm. I’ve done some searching with ambiguous results about the throw out bearing being the culprit. Also as she gets warm to hot I hear a bearing whine but can’t tell where its from. Sounds like its from everywhere. I gotta get a friend to drive it while I listen around. The front bearings have been replaced and all four are cool after a long drive. I’m thinking maybe the rear-end?

    I really love driving this car! It’s so big and bad with that shifter! Compared to today’s technology it comes pretty close to measuring up. Back in 79 it must have been a real dream. The brand new tires help a lot for sure. ChaChing but worth it. The original tires were still on it.

    Attached is a pic while doing the water pump belts and hoses.

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  27. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    #49 Quattroporte3, Oct 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Just a quick followup to my previous talk about the Malpassi Filter King fuel regulator and filter. As I mentioned before, an in-line fuel pressure gauge showed the pressure approaching 7psi, which is much too high for the 2.5psi required by the Webers.

    I pulled the old filter assembly and mounted a new one of the larger size. Since the input and output pipes are swapped relative to the original, I had to make up a short bit of fuel line in order to reach. On thinking over it now, I should have replaced the other bit as well on the input side from where the metal fuel line comes into the engine room as it ended up a bit too long and seemed old and could probably stand being replaced.

    Upon examination of the old filter, I found the actual regulator bits lying inside the filter. It basically spit its guts out into the filter and wasn't regulating anything at all, allowing fuel to flow at full pressure from the pumps. The new one was factory set to 2.5psi and fit on the same mounting brackets as the old one, with just enough room to spare from the inner fender.

    One question I did have, I noted that the fuel pressure gauge and some other fittings use teflon tape on the threads. I cleaned the threads of the old tape and tried reassembly without it, but got leaks, so applied fresh tape, but avoiding the threads at the end of the screws (i.e. that might come into contact with gasoline). Reading on the web, it seems some people say it's fine and other's say it's downright dangerous. What is the consensus, or at least experience of people here?

    Best regards,
    Thor

    (P.s. yes - I realize that the battery connection looks dodgy and ugly. I was trying to find some insulated 90 degree adapters in silicon brass that I've seen in pictures, but was unable to find any. The pigtails I had made up were supposed to be temporary...)
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  28. StanT

    StanT Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 10, 2007
    343
    Vienna, VA
    Question about my 1982 QIII VIN 302086

    Battery has been running down. It's 1 year old Optima. Usually recharges well.

    The other day I hooked up charger and a loud electric motor sound came from inside the right front fender. Disconnected charger and it stopped. Waitd a few minutes, hooked up charger, sound started again. This time it continued after I disconnected the charger.

    Can anyone tell me what that is? Is it causing battery to drain down?

    Thanks
    Stan
     

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