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Quattroporte III catch-all thread

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Quattroporte3, Jun 27, 2011.

  1. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    HI I bought an owners manual set online. It did not have the owners manual but did have the US amendment booklet and the radio booklets etc. I paid $150 for it and will try to send it back but if someone needs the radio booklets, faded plastic wallet, and US amendment to the manual it is all here.
     
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  3. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    Washed the casing today and got it as clean as I could before starting on tearing it down.

    I found that the speedo gearing looks fine, I recall someone earlier saying that it might be stripped, and that it's a common cause of speedometer failure on these cars. Mine looked like new, so I'm not sure where the problem actually lies.

    It turned out that the new set of cir-clip pliers I had bought the other day were too wimpy for the clip holding the output shaft in place, so I didn't get very far today.

    I also discovered that due to the weight of the torque converter and packing, it's 18kg. $300 to send to the US/Canada, probably a bit less to ship back. Shipping to Europe/UK is 1/3 of this, and I wanted to know if anyone can recommend a place that can rebuild the converter, alternately, some place that will sell me a new one. Every one I've found so far on internet shops is for non-lockup only (19 or 24 splines), this is a 23 spline lockup converter.

    Can anyone recommend a place on this side of the pond that can help me?

    :)

    Thor
     
  4. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham

    Hi I was dealing over the email with the 727 Shop that specialise in these and they said they were very used to dealing with them.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzJhCBZ1wMY[/ame]
    http://www.727specialist.com/

    Anyway, a few links for you!! I had more but on my old crashed Sony Vaio
     
  5. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Great Job Thor!,.... My car was on a pit so the car was solidly on the ground. Glad you got the trans out. I think manuals on procedures are not too helpful for most cars as it's best just to take a look and do what seems to make sense. I wasn't present when the pulled my trans so I forgot to mention removing the torque converter 1st. I did not tear down the transmission myself so I really couldn't help much there. There must be a place that can rebuild the converter closer to you though.
    Regards
    Charles
     
  6. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Thor,

    One more thing, I rerouted the cooler lines inboard of the steering shaft to move it away from the headers. Might be something you want to consider.

    Charles
     
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  8. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    William - thanks for the link, I'd actually already posted it earlier in this thread. In fact I'm in touch with Peter at Southwest and have gotten a few tips.

    Charles - I think I could probably remove the next one in half the time, because now I know what needs to be done and in what order ;-). Getting it back in will be interesting. Thanks for the tip about the cooler lines!

    I'm reminded how watching someone do something, and doing it yourself are two completely unrelated things! (it's a good thing, really. keeps one humble.)

    I'd still like to know of any places in Europe/UK that can rebuild a torque converter or sell me a new one.

    Also, random questions -

    Should I remove the rear flange on the output shaft (that connects to the prop shaft), or can it stay on?

    The Munroe book and other sources say to measure the end play of the input shaft prior to removing the oil pump. I was unable to get mine to budge, there doesn't seem to be any play at all (forward/rearward). Is this normal? I applied what I thought was a lot of force, maybe I'm being too gentle with it?

    Cheers,
    Thor
     
  9. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    This car seems to have been for sale for ever? Not sure what is on with this one but it is one that would need to be inspected with a lot of care
     
  10. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    The metallic brown one in California (Charles is the seller) looks great, and for quite a reasonable price.

    Thor
     
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  12. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    #110 Quattroporte3, Jan 8, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I finished disassembly of all assembly units this afternoon, and was surprised to find that the guts look brand new! Frictions still have their embossed pattern, coatings are solid, all surfaces are smooth and even, no signs of wear except for the oil pump input shaft splines.

    Nevertheless I'm replacing all parts and sending out everything that requires a press (i.e. new bushings all around) as well as getting the converter rebuilt (finally found a place locally for a decent price).

    What I'm wondering is if everything inside the transmission is fine, what could be causing the lack of power and a feeling like there's a 3rd-and-a-half speed on top of 3rd?

    I'll be upgrading the components to more heavy duty ones as well as installing a TransGo shift kit and replacing the oil cooler lines before putting it all back in the car.

    One part I've been unable to remove, is the rear band linkage apply lever. It's on a steel pin like the front one, but where the front one has a grub screw holding it in place (unscrew and the pin just pulls out), I haven't found out how this is held in place. If anyone knows, I'd love to know!

    Oh - one last thing - the speedo in my car wasn't working when I got it. Mike (JalpaMike) said it was probably a small white cog in the transmission housing speedo sender unit that can get stripped with age. When I took mine apart, I found that it was green and looked fine. What else could be affecting the speedo? On rare occasions, only when decelerating, it would suddenly jump up for a second before falling dead again. Any ideas? I'd hate to have to pull the whole dashboard if I can avoid it (i.e. if the problem is most likely somewhere else)...


    Cheers,
    Thor
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  13. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Hi Thor,
    the 3 and 1/2 speed feeling is either from the 2-3 clutch with may look fine but is hard and brittle and/or the torque converter is not up to the job. All I know is that the other two previous 4portes I had did the same thing including the one I have know that was remedied when the trans/converter was rebuilt. As far as the speedo, perhaps the sender/generator is bad or the wiring is faulty.... or the speedo unit itself is faulty. The dashpod is not difficult to remove btw as you don't have to pull the dashboard.
    Best regards
    Charles
     
  14. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    #112 Quattroporte3, Jan 10, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Charles,

    thanks for the tips. I will be replacing all internal wear parts and have bought a full rebuild kit with new frictions, steels, bands, etc. I'm really hoping that it tightens up the power transfer to the wheels, and seeing other QP3's on YouTube and the like I'm positive that there's something wrong with mine. We'll see when they split open the torque converter how it looks inside....

    Thanks for the speedo info, is the sender/generator the cylindrical object just on the outside of the extension housing with the wiring to the instrument panel (picture attached)? Is it serviceable/rebuildable, or only replaceable?

    I'm glad to hear that if it is the instrument itself, I won't have to pull the whole dash. I was dreading that...

    Cheers,
    Thor
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  15. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Yes that's it. maybe the wiring there is loose. You may be able to send a signal/voltage through that to see if the speedo moves... but I'm not sure how much of a signal it generates... perhaps it's just pulses and not straight voltage. The speedo is a VDO unit used in many cars, namely porsche from the 70's 80's you might get some info from the internet discussion from them to test it (speedo unit)
    Regards
    Charles
     
  16. Sunracer

    Sunracer Formula Junior

    May 18, 2005
    657
    Makati City
    Full Name:
    Pierre Beniston
    Don't know if you tried this but Jensen Interceptors used 727 Torqueflites and Jensen Specialists in the UK must know shops familiar with them. PB
     
  17. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    #115 Quattroporte3, Jan 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I didn't get a chance to post much last week after taking the subassemblies apart, and today I washed and prepped all parts for reassembly, but my phone battery died early, meaning I only got a few pictures.

    I was surprised to find the frictions and most of the innards to be in very good condition, especially considering how it drives.

    Did Maserati continue using the lock-up version beyond the first few years of production? I know Chrysler abandoned the concept after a few years, and even while it was current (1978 - 82 or thereabouts?) it was often not chosen for high performance applications.

    The front clutch retainer shell had some heavy wear on the inside, where the sealing rings ride, and I'll replace it with a new one. The piston has 11 springs, arranged in 2 groups of 5 & 6, which is a bit different than the Munroe 727 book's recommendation of 5 + 5 + 1 when using 11 springs. I don't know if it actually makes any difference, as long as the load is balanced.

    The input shaft looked like new, with clean and clear markings on the splines from the machining, output shaft too looked to be in good condition, all oil galleries open and bearings smooth and solid.

    One thing that definitely did not look good was the reaction shaft - the splines were really beat up and worn. Since the input shaft connects to the lock up converter/impeller for power transfer and is independent of the reactor shaft, I suppose that the reactor shaft connects to the stator in the converter in order to provide oil pressure and run the pump.

    Since everything inside the tranny looked basically new, I'm really hoping to find a whole slew of problems inside the torque converter (it's off for overhauling now).

    Today I disassembled the governor and spent the rest of the day with an industrial parts washer (mineral spirits, paraffin and diesel), dried and sorted all parts into ziplock bags in anticipation of putting it all back together. Hopefully in the right order, without any parts left over!

    I did notice that the governor shaft was uneven and seemed to have ridges at one end, I'm wondering if maybe I should replace it, especially seeing how the Munroe book treats the governor as a precision instrument, almost as if it were made of solid gold and to be treated accordingly...

    On a less happy note, I managed to break the sealing ring on the kickdown servo piston. I'm not sure if one is included in the overhaul kit, but seeing as how it broke instead of flexed, it might not be something intended to be replaced... Don't ask why I was fiddling around with it in the first place. Have also managed to misplace several screws, which I'm hoping turn up in time for reassembly ;-).

    Cheers,
    Thor
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  18. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Great work Thor! I've found a new home for my 4porte so I'll just have memories to think about now!
     
  19. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    Hi Charles,

    that's a shame (well, it's good for you if you needed to sell her, but sad to see you without a QP3), hope she went to a good home.

    As maligned and unpopular as these often seem to be (thankfully nowhere nearly as much as the BiTurbos), they're still hand built cars with fantastic engines and interiors to match!

    Thanks for your help thus far, hope you stick around the forum. Did you buy another Maserati?

    Cheers,
    Thor


     
  20. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    I spoke with my local shop yesterday, and was told that they did indeed find that the torque converter had seen it's share of abuse and was overdue a rebuild.

    As much as I had hoped they had taken pictures (no time), they were clear that things inside looked pretty beat up and I was lucky to have opened it up now instead of continuing to drive it. The (rather violent) shuddering I had been experiencing in 3rd gear between 2200-2800 rpms was due to problems with the lock up function, and the poor power transfer in all gears was also due to converter wear and problems.

    Next week they'll replace all bushings in the rest of the transmission (I don't have a press or the tools to do it) as well as putting a new reactor shaft on the oil pump stator. I plan on buying a new kickdown lever (4.2 ratio), front band, front clutch shell and new oil cooler lines as well. The front clutch piston springs and sprag (overrunning clutch) rollers and springs will be re-used.

    This weekend I'll be taking the speedo apart to fix, and installing the TransGo shift kit on the valve body.

    Cheers,
    Thor
     
  21. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Interesting that that all three of the 4portes I have owned had issues with 3rd gear lockup. I'm sure you will be amazed with the results when you bolt her back up after the rebuild.
     
  22. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    Hi Charles,

    It's interesting that Maserati chose to go with the lockup converter at all. Chrysler offered it as an alternative in order to improve gas milage by eliminating the fluid coupling in 3rd gear, but most performance and heavy-duty applications chose to forego it.

    As the Mopar website puts it:

    "In 1978, most TorqueFlites had the lock-up torque converter except with the 440 V-8 engine, and those ordered for areas above 4,000 feet altitude, California slant sixes and 440s. It was also not available with the Super Six, or with models equipped with the Heavy-Duty Package."

    It doesn't seem like it would be all that difficult to install a non-lockup converter with the same stall speed, changing the input shaft and ancillary parts along with it. From what I can see in the Munroe book, the differences are minimal.

    Cheers,
    Thor
     
  23. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    #121 Quattroporte3, Jan 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I took apart the speedo today, everything actually looks fine. On closer inspection, it appears that the short driving pin from the gear that engages the output shaft is just a tiny bit too short to engage the square hole in the worm gear that changes the direction of travel and feeds the transponder unit.

    I'll check with MIE and see if they have a spare.

    Cheers,
    Thor
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  24. c20500

    c20500 Karting

    Aug 12, 2010
    147
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Hi Thor,

    I'm probably done with 4portes for a while. Might get another Merak though.

    After my 3rd time around, I realized that I don't think they delivered in some key areas, namely the front suspension. If I could have a chassis as refined as a jaguar or bentley with the 4porte body, interior, then I think it would be interesting. Everytime I got in my jag Xjs after a drive in the 4porte, it made me feel like I was moving up 20 years in refinement, but the Xjs was also a product of the 70's. The Merak never really felt as outdated though.

    I think the entire front subframe of a jaguar, (1984 xj12) installed in a quattroporte would really smooth things out.

    Regards
    Charles


     
  25. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    Hi Charles,

    have you driven one with the upgraded front suspension that MIE offers?

    Mine has it, and while I've never driven other QP3s, it's not bad at all. I was expecting the whole car to roll like a boat in corners, but it's surprising in that regard, it starts to roll, then just hunkers down and flies around the corner like a sled. A 2 ton one, but still surprisingly well behaved.

    The only issue I've noted is when going over speed humps, it really doesn't tackle those well at any speed.

    I'd love a Merak or Bora or Ghibli, but they're more than I can afford. With a family to think of, if I ever do get another, it will most probably be a Mexico. I find the design beautiful, understated, and it's probably pretty similar to the QP3, just without the niceties of the 80's.

    Cheers,
    Thor
     
  26. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    I'm in the middle of re-assembling the subunits.

    The servos have been given new rings, the oil pump is lubricated and back together, with new teflon rings on the reactor shaft.

    The rear clutch pack is assembled, and the frictions are soaking in ATF as I write this (and we bake cookies while waiting :). When held upside down there was a small amount of play, probably around 1mm or so, and the frictions slide freely. That all seems to be ok and in spec.

    However the front clutch pack, which was replaced with a new one, has up to 4.5mm play between the top pressure plate and the wave snap ring. The manual specs half of that, between 2mm - 3.8mm, and Peter (the guy in the YouTube videos) specs 80 thou for his 600hp version with custom valve body (which ends up about 2mm). It all seems rather loose to me. The Munroe book gives the specs, but doesn't indicate how to deal with results that are out of spec (he does suggest using thicker after market steels in one case).

    Any ideas or suggestions? Maybe 4mm is acceptable? I don't want to put it back together unless everything is correct.

    Cheers,
    Thor
     
  27. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #125 William Abraham, Feb 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi. A real issue for me. I had purchased a second rear bumper for layaway but it was damaged on the rubber. The shop where I had the car LOST my beautiful fitted bumper.

    What can I do for the rubber on the rear on this one. Any way to get the rubber part made or repaired???
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