Question for the pilots - do you get nervous flying commercial?

For the pilots, here's a question for you, I want to see if anyone else has this quirk. As a bit of background, I'm an attorney and specialize in aviation law. I've also been flying since I was 16. Fixed wing at first, now I have about 250 hours in helicopters. And I love to fly, when I'm in the cockpit, whether as PIC or not, its a blast, no matter what the situation or the weather, I enjoy it. But put me in the back on a Delta flight or whatever, and I turn into a nervous Nellie. I mean the whole flight, I'm looking around and questioning everything. Before takeoff I want to make sure that the flaps and slats are deployed. On climbout, if its a little steep I start wondering if there's a trim problem. A turn that's more than 30 degrees angle of bank? Oh hell, now we have a control surface problem. Coming in, making the turn to final, its like Man, he's getting slow, better start dropping flaps before we stall at low altitude and fall out of the sky. And WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS THAT WEIRD NOISE THAT I JUST HEARD??!! And on and on.

It drives my wife nuts when we go anywhere. I think the reason for it is because I've been around the industry for so long, and seen so many people die from so many silly and stupid things, that I'm overly paranoid. But I ran into a commercial pilot for a large carrier on vacation last week, he is a check airman as a matter of fact, we got to talking about it, he told me he was the exact same way himself. So maybe I'm not crazy. But I'd love to hear some feedback from others.

 

Nope, you're not crazy.

I'm not a pilot myself but I do work in aviation (avionics). And I to get to be like that.

-David

 

I dont feel comfortable but not to the level you have described.
Yes i always try and figure out what is going on but im not really worried about it but i just have a sense of unwell because i dont know what is going on.

 

I completely understand your fears and anxiety. I can't stand being in the "tube". I'm a wreck the whole flight.

 

Used to have a mechanic working for me that was an A+P for one of the majors. It was one with an exelllent reputation for maintenance.

He would not fly at all if he could drive there.

He used to say "Ignorance is bliss and I am not ignorant of what goes on in maintenance".

 

Well, I'm a pilot, and an engineer with a smattering of stats knowledge. Comm flying is something I hate, but not for the reasons you give. The TSA security theater, the nasty FAs, the interminable delays all make me cranky. I don't worry about the plane or the pilot so much.

 

I work with a bunch of National Guard Helicopter Pilots and I don't know a one of them that likes to fly commercially.

 

I'm not real nervous, but I do tend to judge the pilot, and if he isn't the brightest bulb in the chandelier, then I get a bit concerned...

If he really likes to yank and bank I figure that he is most likely an ex-military pilot. Not that that is bad, but I'd rather enjoy the ride than be cranked around when I'm in the back....

I also really hate it when right after takeoff, they "shoot for the moon", since a loss of power at that point could be a really bad thing, and although the book says you can do it that way, it isn't a very smart thing to do, and if the guy up front isn't smart enough to know that, I don't want to be riding with him when something does go wrong.....

I am also a big believer in keeping some airspeed in my pocket and I don't like if they are maneuvering low and slow and doing a lot of banking, same reason as above...

Other than that I don't mind it if I'm not driving, but like I said there are a few things that some commercial pilots do that make me nervous...

 

+1

 

Actually, we dont "shoot for the moon" - the flight director is placing the aircraft at the correct L/D and is placing the aircraft in the most safe and advantageous position should an engine failure occur (V2+10K). It has nothing to do
with the "boss".

Too much airspeed is altitude wasted - Too little airspeed (well, you know)

Mark

AA 767 International

 

+1..........

Same here, I spent alot of time at the airlines prior to owning my own business and yes there are alot of doorknobs working on them. Many good guys as well, but still scary about the rookies.


What is worse yet especially during stressful financial times, the airline is riding mx a$$ to avoid delays, crew scheduling rides the crews and plays games with them, flight crews are always watching their back with management. Bottom line is that a doesn't make for a really peaceful atmosphere. I've experienced all of this, and I know first hand what management can pull on crews.

I've been on board airplanes that have so many deferred maintenance items that the cockpit looks like a pumpkin patch of orange inop stickers, listened to the crew complain about their pay cut or contract negotiations and even watched a couple guys try to not fall asleep because scheduling pushed them to the limit on duty time.....This is what you call a recipe for disaster, pretty amazing it's as safe as it is.



Crew members are the most overlooked with regard to pay, it's a shame how they are paid for the way many are treated. Especially considering the responsibility they face...Its not all glamour, believe me. Very tough business....

 

Let me ask this then...is it better or worse when you can see the pilots and what they are doing in a CJ1 or similar aircraft?

BJ

 

The modern jet airliner is designed for rapid climb out and high alpha. The high lift devices and big thrust do it very well and engine out on take off is figured into it...V1, V2, etc. That's why they all have big tall vertical tails and powerful rudders. Not for cruise stability but for engine out on take off and any well trained pilot can handle the airplane in case of it....they say.
I don't know how good or bad the mechs are but I know that the airplanes from Boeing have margins.
I guess from my old days if there isn't white smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe and no black smoke coming out of the cowling and the landing gear isn't hanging out of the nacelle, you're going to have a real good day.
When the 737 is running a reliability rate of 99.99 and the 777 is right behind, I don't worry about the commercial jets....except on gusting and squirrelly landings. Never did like DC-10's and MD-11's.
SWITCHES OFF

 

No argument that the aircraft is designed for it and lots of pilots do it every day, and there are some margins in there. Just that I've spent too much time desiging and developing turbine engines to know what goes on inside them and that sometimes things inside get tired and go south. When they do (note I didn't say if), if you are in that configuration you are going to have to recognize it quickly to avoid a bad outcome.

And it isn't going to be one thing that puts anybody into smoking hole in the ground.

I generally figure that it takes three things (or three mistakes) to kill you. Like in the AA DC 10 that crashed in Chicago. First the engine fell off, then as it left the aircraft it took out the slats on the left wing. Everything was still fine until the pilot throttled back and slowed down. Then the left wing stalled and it rolled over and went in.

The point is, if you don't have a book airplane, it won't fly by the book. A little extra speed on climb out is like an insurance policy, it doen't cost you much and if you find out you need it, it's really a good thing to have.

For instance, what would happen if a slat fell off or retracted during that high aoa climb out? If it stalls one wing (or both) at that point you and all aboard are dead. What you are doing is betting your life that nothing will happen and have no margins if something does, since you are well below the stall speed for a clean wing. What would happen if you are in that situation and you lost a turbine on a wing mounted engine, it could easily take out the slats, and there are plenty of times where turbines burst and do damage to the aircraft...

Now, granted it doesn't happen very often, but as in the above example, it does happen from time to time. It just doesn't make any sense to me for you to bet my life on the equipment like that...

 

UMM., no. The modern turbine engine has a failure rate of less than .0021% in flight hours - and that is ALL failures. Total engine failure is around .0004 percent of flight hours. You are in more danger of the overhead bridge falling on you on the way to the airport. I have flown 374 trips to Hawaii from Dallas (and back) and have never seen either engine even burp. EGTs. N1. N2. Oil Temperature are all WITHIN ONE DEGREE - 8hours each way.

As far as a high AOA climbout, do you think there are NO margins there?

Typically we are at 1.5 VSO in those climb outs (second stage climb) prior to our first power reduction. These climb outs have a 50% stall margin. If the loss of an airframe part were to occur there would NOT be a instant "stalling of the wing" as

you suggest. There would be plenty of time (and, yes there are procedures) for the crew to lower the nose and increase the airspeed. Remember, airspeed by itself it not always good - particularly when you are looking at mountains!

Best

Mark

 

Which is all well and good, all true, and excellent feedback. But its also all referencing when you are PIC. How about the original question - you're in the "tube" and have no clue whether everything is being done as it should. How do you feel?

 

Those things scare the **** out of me. If got meant man to fly he would have given him wings///

 

LOL. Now you know how I feel!!

 

You got that wrong. " If God had meant man to fly, He would have lowered the air fare."
Switches

 

On overnight flights to Brzail I fly ambien class and rarely have concerns about the aircraft/crew. OTOH, I have been known to wake up on board in the morning, see the crumbs on my shirt front, and conclude I must have had dinner.

I was much more worried when I was PIC on a single, because I knew how little I knew.

And don't even ask about my worries re rental craft when I was a student!

 

I meant Brazil. AFAIK I haven't been to Brzail. At least not that I remember.

 

Mark, you have a million more hours than I do, and fly for a living most days, so I am sure that you are far better trained and have more pilot experience than I ever will. I'm coming from my experience as an engineer, and one who has experience taking an engine through an FAA cert program, so I tend to look for anything that can happen and then assume that it absolutely will, and then look at what will happen WHEN it does. Believe me I have seen some bizarre failures and things that one would simply think were not possible. But the end result was a hole in the ground and people in body bags.

First, using your statistics for engine failure, there were over 400 engine failures and 78 engine total engine failures last year in the US commercial airline fleet. That's about one a day, and about three "total" engine failures every two weeks. You may fly your entire career and never experience one, but it happens. I have over 30 years designing, developing and maintaining turbine engines, know them intimately, and, maybe because I've seen a lot of twisted metal, I am more aware of the damage an uncontained engine failure can wreak on an airplane. While it may never happen to you, you specifically train for that event because it happens often enough. I have been on one commercial airline flight that had in-flight shutdown, and on one that had an uncontained failure during takeoff and I don't fly much at all, typically once or twice a month. (note those were both JT8D's and thankfully there are less of them around nowadays)

As far as margins go, I am not contending that there are no margins in these actions. Yes absolutely you are at 1.5 x Vso during climb, and if you lost an engine you would just put the nose down and go about your business. If you loose a slat, your stall speed isn't Vso, it's Vs1. If you are in a high aoa climb you could very well be BELOW VS1 (I looked up the typical climb speed for a 747, and early climb was at 180 kts, while Vs1 is 198 kts at max weight, take a look at your POH and let us know what the Vs1 is for your aircraft and let us know what you climb at, that's your margin, for the loss of a slat, I guarantee it isn't 1.5). So if you loose a slat for some reason you may very well be significantly BELOW stall when it happens. If the 747 example is correct (and since I found those speeds on the internet, I can't assume they are) if you lost a slat and were 18 kts below stall, I don't care how much of a hot rock you are as a pilot, the airplane stalled a long time ago. And remember the stick shaker/pusher doesn't know anything about a degraded airplane so you get no warning. If you lost one slat at a speed below Vs1, the airplane would roll and you would have absolutey no control over it.

The point is that you are quoting margins on the airframe that you and the good folks at Boeing assume you have. If you lost a slat and don't have that airplane, you could very well have less than no margin, and in any case it is a heck of a lot less than 1.5. The guys taking off in Washington DC had a load of snow on the wings, they flew the airplane by the book and it went down on the GW bridge. As noted previously, when the AA DC-10 lost the slat on the left wing, he slowed down to pattern speed, assuming that he had an airplane that could fly with margins at a Vref that was 1.5 VSO. He died. The guy taking off in the DC-9 in Detroit thought he had the flaps at the takeoff setting. He didn't and he died. These are but three examples, with something like 400 dead people that resulted from flying an airplane that didn't have book performance, by the book, and right into the ground.

Prudent margins aren't based on a simple number like 1.5, they should be based on what can and has happened. I'm confident that 99.999% of the pilots that "shoot for the moon" on takeoff don't think it is a risky maneuver, and will never have a problem doing it. But all it takes is once, and I hope that I'm not on the aircraft when something like this happens (note here I didn't say if, because it already has at least once, which at least proves it is entirely possible) .

That's why pilots that shoot for the moon bother me.

Happy landings...

 

I know of only one slat failure and that was on a 767 test flight and they brought the airplane back. I don't have knowledge of any slat failures in commercial operations other than the Hoot Gibson thing and they got that airplane back. Anybody ?
I don't have any worries about the jets. They are engineered to do what they do and they do it well thousands of times every day. When one does have a problem...pilot or airplane...it is news- worthy because it seldom happens. That's my look at it.
Switches Off

 

It is all destiny, some people fly thousands of hours in their lives and never experience a true emergency and some get killed on their first hours.

I have only seen one engine failure in my life, it was in a Jetstar II with the 731 Garretts, engine No. 3 would not fire up but the pilot didn't really worry and we went ahead and left home with

3 engines and didn't feel a thing, those Jetstars are really built like tanks, other than that I have never seen a turbine shut down

 

ICT to LAS last year. We were on Allegiant and we lost an engine. Emergency landed (if you can even call it that) at Colorado Springs....for the life of me I do not remember what type of aircraft we were on. Fairly sure it was an MD-83.

Unfortunately my luck continued in vegas that night as well...should have stayed home.