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Question on 1970s f-car factory advertised HP/Tq numbers

Discussion in '308/328' started by AZDoug, May 24, 2020.

  1. AZDoug

    AZDoug Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2009
    1,413
    Along the Verde , AZ
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    Doug
    When they ran these on a dyno for numbers, did they use a production motor, or blueprinted motor for testing?

    Did they run it on the dyno thru full exhaust belt driven water pump and alternator,, or did they do it Like American car makers used to, with open headers, no water pump driven off the crank , and no alternator?

    Doug
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  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
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    #2 Steve Magnusson, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
    Pretty sure they cheated in the early 70's -- just like the US manufacturers ;), but by about the mid-70's, it was more SAE standard J1349 / DIN 70020 (tested in real configuration).
     
  4. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 4, 2001
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    They "cheated"

    The 2Vi cars quoted at 205 were really about 180
     
  5. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2013
    1,042
    Tulsa, OK
    I think the early dyno numbers originated within the marketing department :)


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  6. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    I can only share some tangential evidence they were using real production motors.

    When I examined the first 5.0 liter BB sold publicly, it contained engine number .00004.
    That would mean the others might have met an early demise in R&D???
     
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  8. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,772
    FRANCE
    It's a bit more complicated than that, Steve. Bit like the actual weight of the glass cars, if you wish. They didn't "cheat", but the factory used the two different figures, the "true" one (= more or less DIN) and the "flatering" one (more or less SAE) whenever and wherever it pleased them...

    They knew that the true power of a standard dry-sump 2.926cm3 V8 engine, in "DIN" (more or less) figures was 230hp, because that's the number they gave in official documents, and when the car was tested by the press at its arrival on the market. The french reference magazine for sports car at the time was "Sport-Auto", and in their first test of the glass car they quoted the exact, true, weight of a glass car at 1.240 kilos (and not the fanciful 1.190, or 1.050 that have survived to this day...) and the power at 230hp, except once in the text where they stated "255 hp", which is the SAE figures, and the one most often quoted, even in the owner's manual, probably as it was more flattering.

    Interstingly, when they started to use "DIN" figures, circa 1980, they amended the owner's manual with a small sticker glued above the "255", saying "230"...

    For those of you reading german, have a look at the annexes in Dirk-Michael Konradt's book "Autos, die Geschichte machten: die Ferrari 308 und 328".
    There are some figures from the German TÜV from actual tests of the engine (but not necessarly at the same revs...) for each model of the car when introduced on the market: for "euro" versions, they were 235hp for the wet-sump engine of the GT4, 229hp for the dry-sump engine of the 308GTB (pretty close to 230, isn't it?); 226hp for the wet-sump engine of the GTS.
    (The annexes of said book also have actual weights for every variant of the car)

    The power figures discrenpancies started to disappear with the QV.

    Keep in mind also that the accepted margin at the factory was a 3% deviation from the theoretical power output, which is more or less 7hp on a 230hp engine: if an engine gave less than 97%, it went back to the engine shop for correction. If 97% or more, it was fitted to a production car.

    I have taken so much flak from owners when I write that their engine never gave 255hp, but 230 true hp, that I shall stop there. Our own "Alberto-LP" on this very forum, being the closest of all members to the factory, once wrote that there never was any standard factory 2.926cm3 V8 that gave more than 230 true hp.

    Rgds
     
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  9. Arvid

    Arvid Formula Junior
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    May 28, 2012
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    Arvid Andersson
    I always wondered about the same regarding my own 400GT. A fellow owner not far from me had his 400GTA dynoed a few years back and it produced 325HP and 480Nm on a well tuned and stock engine. That is good numbers for a 40 year old engine and in tune with the stated factory figures.
     
  10. AZDoug

    AZDoug Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2009
    1,413
    Along the Verde , AZ
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    Doug
    Thank you. That's what i suspected, no way with the 255 on the Euro car 2V motor as installed, that number sounds more like something that came from the testing setup i showed in the pic.

    I also suspect the 180 HP mentioned above, was a "real" number for an as installed US 2V car.

    Doug
     

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