Question on newer cars with high leakdown, FI problem? | FerrariChat

Question on newer cars with high leakdown, FI problem?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by bpu699, Nov 24, 2006.

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  1. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    It seems that lately there has been a spurt of posts on relatively newish cars, with higher leakdowns. I am sure there are tons of reasons why this could happen, but I have one question in particular.

    Can a ferrari's FI run rich on just a couple of cylinders, and cause washdown of the cylider wall and premature wear?

    I know it can happen in carburated cars...

    I know it can happen if you lose spark/ignition...

    But, lets say your ignition works fine. Is there a failure mode for the FI system where just a couple of cylinders run rich? I would think that if a FI failed, it would fail in the closed mode, and run lean...

    If this is a possible failure mode, how would you know? Most of the cars don't have OBD2, etc. You could run in this mode for years. Sure, the cats might run hotter, but wouldn't that require that the cylinders run REALLY rich? Is there a value in replacing FI early?

    I am curious, because the last several times folks posted leakdowns, there was a large variance between the cylinders. I would think that if the leakage was due to misuse/abuse/lack of use, then most of the cylinders would have higher leakage, and not just a few...
     
  2. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Veteran
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    This is a general answer but, on the 5.2 motronic you have one ECU controling both banks of a 355 and fuel maps that are used have limits to the fuel that is injected based on various sensor information. If you were running too rich a mixture and the 02 sensors could not correct it the CELs would come on.
    The 355 engine problems are more related to header and valve guide failure. All factory headers should be changed to an aftermarket part, NEVER replace with a factory piece. The valve quide problem only effects certain cars('95 and some '97 and '98) corrected with steel guides in mid '98, might be poor quality meterial or poor installation(or both). This is fairly general answer, do a search on 355 valve quides and headers you will find a ton of info. Regards, Vern
     
  3. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    Thanks vern, I get that.

    But what about 348's, testarossa's, etc. I will admit my ignorance, I know little about FI systems. Can 1 or 2 injectors run "rich" without the ECU, slow down lights, whatever, catching it? Or, is running rich pretty difficult to do with a FI system.

    I am more accustomed to carbs/jets/etc. And running rich there, is very easy to mistakenly accomplish :).
     
  4. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Veteran
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    I would lean(no pun intended) on the answer that it is fairly difficult for electronic FI systems to allow 1 or 2 cylinders to run so rich that OBD part of the ECU would not catch the malfunction. On the electronic systems I suppose you could have a bad injector but, if it gets real bad the 02 is going to try to adjust the mixture via its reading from the exhaust on the offending bank(1 ECU on 5.2 but 2 02s) and it eventually will probably turn on the CEL because the ECU can't bring the fuel mixture within it's pre-programed parameters. That is what is good about the computer contolled fuel and ignition systems of modern cars they "see" problems long before they get serious, in most cases. As you probably know you could have a bad carb throat on a 308 weber system that could cause a rich cylinder and maybe not notice it and have no warning (no monitoring system) Did that help? Again this is fairly general. Regards, vern
     
  5. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    Yes, a fuel injected Ferrari can run rich on just 1 cylinder (e.g. failed or incorrect fuel injector). Worse, it can run lean leading to catastrophic damage.

    No need to guess, though. You can pull your spark plugs to instantly discover if you have such a rich/lean condition in any cylinder(s).

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136079421#post136079421
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    NO Not possible.



    We are talking about US spec Ferrari's.

    If the engine is running correctly in every way the cats are much of the time running very near their max operating temp. To not do so would be throwing away HP and Ferrari did not build or tune the cars that way. One of the reasons car makers have been able to make more and more power since the intro of cats is that cats have been able to take higher and higher heat without either overheating or degrading faster than federally mandated life spans. That has allowed tuning the cars to higher levels. The F40 was the first production car with metallic cats. That kind of performance would not have been possible without them.

    That is exactly the reason so many people have slow down light problems. One cylinder not running well, slight mistiming of a cam (3 degrees is enough to do it) etc can cause a slow down light easily.

    Also when 1 or more cylinders is not running well they often do not burn all the oxygen they have available. When that happens the O2 sensor richens the mixture and you have China syndrome.
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I will ammend the previous post to say I have seen many cases where an entire bank or entire motor was running so badly that sufficiant exhaust heat was not available to get the cat hot enough to warm up and hurt itself.
     

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