Hey, So, there's a long & winding thread in the F1 forum in which we got to discussing 'self driving' cars. Bought up the question of autopilots on airplanes and their 'capabilities'. I know they can, & often do, land themselves. But can they also do takeoffs? I certainly don't know, but guessed the guys up front want to do that because they can? Cheers, Ian
Not sure what they have on commercial or military aircraft, but for General Aviation planes the Garmin GFC-700 is one of the more recent and capable autopilots (and is part of the Garmin 1000 panel in my Cessna 182). It will not automate a take-off, but it does have a Flight Director (FD) that can be used for right after take-off or doing a go-around. The FD provides visual guidance on where and how to fly. Think of an autopilot as having 2 parts: the FD is the "smarts" of the AP that directs exactly how to fly the plane, and the other half of the AP are the servos to robotically move the flight controls to obey the FD instructions. Note that the AP does not control the throttle/power/prop speed or fuel mixture settings, only the flight controls (elevator, ailerons, and rudder). Here is a link that explains the FD in the GFC-700 better than I can. https://flyhpa.com/2013/02/garmin-gfc-700-autopilot-and-flight-director/ I typically leave the FD and AP off during both take-offs and the last phase of landings. I don't want any unexpected "help" when I'm that close to the ground. .
From what i understand the modern autopilot systems can control all aspects if flying except for taxi, and takeoff. But there was that A350 at JFK that ordered an abort on the takeoff roll, but that was the Runway Awareness and Advisory System that issued the abort..
I'm not aware of any autopilots which can do takeoffs, but that's not for technical reasons. A few years ago, Fred Smith got in some hot water for saying that the 777 is perfectly capable of flying anywhere autonomously, except for taxi and takeoff, and those were trivial problems. The unions did not appreciate that comment! Probably didn't hurt Fred's negotiating position, though!
I tried googling Fred Smith, but didn't really get anywhere. Given the name, hardly surprising I guess! I assume (always dangerous as we know!) he's something to do with the flight controllers union? I vaguely recall those guys saying that flying would be a lot safer if there wasn't a jockey up front - "Most accidents eventually come down to pilot error, so let's eliminate the pilots & control 'em from the ground" (?) Or something close to that? However, I know for damn sure I'm not getting on one without a jockey or two up there! Also meant to say "thanks" for the answers to the OP. Pretty much what I thought. Cheers, Ian
Fred Smith is the founder of FedEx. I can't think of any reason why an autopilot couldn't do taxi and takeoff. Probably more safety philosophy than technical difficulty.
Autopilots have no capability in the taxi/takeoff phase. Also, it should be noted the auto land capabilities of aircraft are highly orchestrated and overseen by the flight crew. Very, very far from being "autonomous" - indeed most any equipment or system failure renders them unusable (at least legally).
Ah, OK, thanks! Once again, "learn something every day". Agreed. Even my little drone knows *exactly* where it's at. Technically I'm sure it's doable. My q was more are they doing it today. The responses confirmed my understanding of the current state of play, which is always nice! Cheers, Ian
Understood. (Now! ) But there's no 'technical' reason why not, is there? Sure. We went down this rat hole in the F1 forum on the subject too; it's the unexpected that'll get ya! What happens when a rabbit crosses the track? Or some lunatic (see; Silverstone a few years back) messes with the systems? I can't see us losing human oversight in my life time, that's for sure! Thankfully! As already noted, I'm not getting on one without a guy up front who (hopefully) knows what he's doing. Cheers, Ian
On the 747, there are 3 autopilots working in unison during an auto landing. A failure of any one system shouldn't affect the outcome. That said, I had an auto land go very bad a few years back. No failures of any systems, but the airplane pitched extremely high. I had to quickly disconnect the autopilots, push the nose down, and land manually. I'll look up the report the shows all the data. Boeing couldn't explain the cause. Good thing it wasn't CAT III weather. Anyways, things can go wrong.
Ok, found the report. CAT II weather in ORD. Visibility was maybe 1300 feet. Anyways, flare starts at 53 ft on the 747. It sorta flares in 2 steps. At 53 ft it halves the VSI I believe. Then it flares harder at around 30 feet. Anyways, in started it's flare normally, then flared really hard. Based on experience, I knew something wasn't right. At approx. 10 ft I disconnected the autopilot and pushed the elevator from way nose up (-14.3 on the report) to a little nose down (+1.3). Then adjusted the flare and touched down. Max pitch was 7.5 degrees. The tail hits around 12 degrees. Eventual touchdown pitch was 4.0 degrees as shown by the M for "Main gear touchdown". Anyways, imagine a 747 at near takeoff pitch on landing. Not a pretty picture. It also flared hard enough to approach a stall. Pulled 1.3 G's which doesn't sound like much, but that's essentially what your approach speed is based on. 1.3VSO So, power at idle, nose high, and almost at a stall. Good times. Info on the report..... RALT is Radio Altitude or height above ground CAS is essentially airspeed IVV is vertical speed ELEV is elevator position PITCH is .....pitch CWP is Control Wheel Position SQ is squat switch M for Mains MN for Mains Nose I love automation, and use it everyday. That said, I keep an eye on what's going on. While pilots cause some accidents, they prevent others. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Just to come at this from a different angle..... I seem to recall reading that the takeoff/launch sequence for an F-18 going off a carrier is totally automated and the pilot is hands off the controls. Maybe Taz knows more? I wouldn't be surprised if some of the larger UAVs had totally automated takeoff sequences. Some of the missions I have been flying lately are in conjunction with Global Hawk and if I have a chance I'm gonna ask the operators.
Mark- The only thing automated on those take-offs is that the aircraft will stay straight ahead because of the catapult and rail run down the center during launch. The pilots take their hands off the throttles and stick so the g forces (2.5-4 g) of the catapult launch do not cause them to make inadvertent inputs until airborne. With take-off trim set, the aircraft launches into a relatively stable attitude and the pilot quickly takes over the controls as he clears the flight deck and the g forces drop back to less than 1. Remember, no, or very little, cross wind on takeoff. Takes somewhere less than 3 seconds to go from 30-35 knots plus wind speed to 170 KCAS on a fighter. If I got anything wrong, one of our Navy pilots can set me straight.
"That's why you make the big bucks!" And the reason I'd never get on one without 'you' up front..... I recall one time returning to LHR due to a 'technical problem'. We get back to the gate and there's this chick absolutely freaking out that she wanted off & wasn't going again. She had checked baggage, so off loading would have been been a major PITA. The trolley Dolly's (no disrespect intended to flight attendants, but I love that term ) eventually convinced her that if the guys up front were happy it was fixed, all was good. But the whole ordeal delayed us for probably another hour. That's a little alarming! Put it down to experience & move on I guess? Cheers, Ian
My memory's failing..... After much yelling & screaming, the pilot came back and calmly informed her that she was free to get off if she so chose - Apparently, as we'd already reached 'cruising altitude' prior to the problem, we, and her luggage, could go. She again freaked out that she needed her luggage. The pilot said it wasn't getting offloaded. So it was her choice....... Cheers, Ian
That is why duct tape was invented. Never leave home without it. A pilot friend went from passenger service to cargo and was never happier. Boxes never complain.
On my plane no, as with take offs. The biggest thing I can take away from automation is that you have to be vigilant when monitoring. The slightest hiccup can cause the plane to do things that its not supposed to do.
I have hundreds of hours with TFR and autopilot, hands off, flying at night, 200-1000' AGL, at 480-570 KTAS. But you can bet both of us were watching her like a hawk the entire time to make sure the TFR was operating correctly. I also had several friends killed by TFR malfunctions, so trusting an aircraft to do what she is supposed to do can get you killed. Just like in Lou's case; if he had not been watching.....
