Question re: Ferrari maintenence

If you have a reasonable working knowledge of cars especially DOHC engines then you will be able to perform a majority of the work on a 3x8 series yourself. Which yes can save you thousands a typical major for a 3x8 will run 3-5k. These cars are not that bad, just keep in mind that they are 20-25 year old cars now, and the upkeep will be an ongoing process

 

There is nothing wrong with doing the service on these cars yourself if you are able. The 3X8s are nice because you don't have to pull the motor every time you service the car. Keep in mind that a 30k service will still cost around a $1,000 just in parts. By the way, just because it says a 30k mile service, doesn't mean you won't do it well before that. Just an FYI.

 

I've been doing all of the work on my 79 308 and I'm just an auto enthusiast. I've worked on antique car for years and several sports cars with no major problems. With a computer you can find most parts (although sometimes difficult) but most important you can get help from a lot of very knowledgeable and generous people on this chat line. I could not have done much without their help. I have no special tools and a garage with no lift. You have to have patience and the desire to do the work. I bought the 308GT4 service manual, a parts list with blowups (in English) and an 1978 owner's manual. There are no Haynes, Motor's, or Clilton's unfortunately. In my opinion the 308 although more sophisticated than most cars the basic theory of auto mechanics applies. I was very hesitant at first too but since there was no Ferrari techs within 80 miles or more and no local mechanics willing to do anything I just decied to do it myself. I've been having alot of fun, learning a bunch, and it has been very rewarding. As for the resale value it does make a difference but mostly to those who only know how to wash a car. Interestingly my car was worked by only experienced techs and when I starting to set the car up to Ferrari data everything was off. So just because a car was serviced by Ferrari mechanics doesn't mean that everything is correct IMO. The 308's are not out of sight when it comes to price so if you "break" something you can still take it to the "pros". I guess the reason for this lenghty post is to say go for it. You only go around once so it might as well be in an F car.

 

the maintenance is worth every penny considering what you are getting.......
Don't let the horror stories discourage you... Once you buy a Ferrari, you'll never look back!!!

 

I don't own a Ferrari but I daily drive my Maserati with no problems. I'm at 11.6k miles and it had 9.5k miles about 2 weeks ago. I think these cars run better when driven more often.

 

I didn't see the point of starting a new thread with this question.

Firstly, by way of introduction, I am a 30 yo male who has loved Ferrari since I was 3 yo (I actually remember the first time I saw one). I do not own one yet, but will likely buy one in about 5-10 years if things continue to proceed on track. (Admittedly, plans often go awry, but here's to hoping )

I share, somewhat, the sentiments of the OP. I love Ferrari, but the maintenance costs seem a lot like extortion.

(Applying flame suit now) I plan on buying a 360/430 or the equivalent of whatever the next generation brings. I plan to use it as a daily driver and will hopefully rack up lots of miles. I realize that this proposition is not good for resale, but I don't really care about that. To that same effect, I am only interested in keeping the car in good running order, I am not interested in being extorted with the goal of maintaining the resale value. So here is the question:

Why does Ferrari schedule things like clutch changes, especially so frequently? I have only ever driven manual transmission cars (I won't buy an F1) and I have gotten >100k on a single clutch. Is it really necessary? Why can't I just change the clutch when it needs it, same with the hoses and serpentine belt. ***I am NOT suggesting I would wait until the timing belt fails, that of course, will be changed per specifications.

Any experienced opinions would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

Welcome. To generalize, Ferrari builds high performance, high maintenance cars. It's an old school philosophy. Just like race cars need frequent attention, a Ferrari has never been a drive-it-and-forget-it car. More importantly, Ferrari makes no apologies for service costs: you signed up for an exotic, and that's more or less what you get. These were built and sold as money-no-object cars. Which is why "extorted" is an interesting choice of words. It's assumed that you will pay special attention -- fastidious attention -- to keeping your Ferrari in top running order. These aren't Honda Civics, designed primary for affordability and utility.

I (and probably a lot of owners here) knew that we'd pay more for maintenance. There's always Porsche if you want something prestigious and cheaper to service. Those are great cars. But Ferraris have always been engineered on the edge, and built in smaller quantities, two traits that make them more expensive. (Parts are cheaper when you engineer/test/produce them for a production run of 300,000 Lexuses than 7,000 Testarossas, for example.) When you decide to buy a Ferrari instead of a Nissan GTR, Porsche 911, etc., you step across the line and make the tradeoff: more clutch replacements for the adrenalin rush of driving the car. You're welcome to let the timing belt on your Ferrari fail: financially, probably not a good move.

While you're also obviously welcome to use a Ferrari as a daily driver, that's not the intended purpose of the models you mentioned. Plan on a lot of scraped valance incidents, clutches, bruised rims, a few replacement windscreens at $4000+, etc. Again, Ferrari optimized a lot of these parts around performance, not economy of replacement.

FWIW, my 328 has been stone reliable. But it did cost over $5,000 for a major service two months ago. That's a lot, but it's something I knew about when I bought the car, and frankly the car still makes me happy whenever I drive it or even walk by it in the garage. So, $5,000 is expensive, but I can swing it, and I bought the car knowing that. I actually feel better about spending that money on maintaining a dream car than I do blowing it on depreciation for, say, a new Mercedes. It's a high maintenance car by design, and you're free to get a 911 instead. I actually had a 911 before the 328. Different costs, different benefits. I don't really miss the 911 that much, whereas the 328 I may never sell.

If you think you're going to buy a Ferrari and get by on the cheap, your car may not treat you as well. If it was possible to spend $200 a year on Ferrari maintenance, everyone would own one.

 

Great observations Jon... I want to be very unique, do what others can't pull the trigger on, and live life to the fullest. It IS too short.

I don't see where $1000 to even $3000 per year on maintenance is a huge sum for the benefits. If that is a stretch, go grab the honda 2000 or miata. Classic Porsche's can also cost that much and they are on every street corner - for the most part. Been there, done that. Might add another later on, but won't be parting with my 328 or it's costs...

Robb

 

Thank you for the reply.

I just want to be clear; I am not interested in merely saving a buck, but instead am trying to understand if it is really necessary to replace the clutch when it's working fine. I am wondering how much of the maintenance is done because not doing so would destroy the resale value of the car, not necessarily the car itself.

 

A lot of people can't really drive a stick correctly, and the F1 tranny (from what I've heard) eats clutches in traffic or in reverse. That probably represents the main reason for that recommendation in newer cars.

FWIW I don't recall any required clutch replacement interval in my 328 manual. As far as I can tell from the maintenance records of my car, it has never had a clutch changed, and it's at 106,000 miles. The clutch action is fine.

 

So you don't think I'm way off base?

 

Think if your plan is to buy in 5 years time it'll likely co-incide with a move to F-car design changes more in line with other marque's expectations.
Enzo would never have thought about provision of golf club storage. Luca de Montezemola type F-cars will compete for service costs and intervals along with other top marques.

If you consider the aim is to have the Ferrari experience, not just to own a brand of car, then like flying routine maintenance is necessary to keep that state.
You can't park a plane indefinitely. Nor a Ferrari.
Certainly for the duration of the customer's relationship with Ferrari the aim is similar to a race driver's expectation. The car should be ready to compete. To go at its best, with other considerations as secondary.
Whether that auto-nirvanic state is ever really achieved is debatable, of course. Hence many owners' dis-satisfaction with FNA and its dealers.

There's certainly an other world entirely when the Ferrari concerned is no longer a current model. In fact many worlds.

 

Deferred maintenance does affect the value of the car, but I don't think many (any?) of us replace clutches before they're worn. However, a lot of guys try to avoid paying the major service bills on Ferraris, and the first thing an informed buyer will do is ask when the last major was done. You just can't let these cars go for years without a good tech having a look. I'd venture the price difference on something like a Testarossa that has been recently serviced by a dealer or good independent tech and one that was driven for a decade with a few oil changes could be in the neighborhood of $10,000 or even higher.

The most desirable used Ferraris are the ones where if a side mirror screw fell off the owner had a new one flown in from Italy the next day.

Timing belts are different - if you let it fail, the expense is large. A failed clutch might mean a tow.

I agree. Based on service records, my 328 had its clutch replaced at 13,000 miles. That would speak to the first owner's habits. If you keep your foot off the clutch at red lights and can launch the car without slipping the clutch for prolonged stretches, you can do better. (FWIW, though, 308/328 clutches aren't terribly expensive. I think prices went up with the 348 and later cars.)

On the newer cars, I also believe Tillman is correct about the F1 gearboxes. It's designed to maximize the speed and accuracy of shifts at the expense of the clutch. That gets back to my point about Honda having different priorities. I hate the "pay to play" expression, but it does seem relevant here.

 

Well said.

 

I think a good guess is it costs 2X the price of the parts to have them installed. If you can do you own maintenance then you can save money. I have bought tools to do specific jobs and have always thought it was money well spent.

 

You were fed misinformation about clutches. There is no prescribed interval for replacement. I've had 4 different models ranging from 77 308 to 05 430. Some people go through them quick, others do not. Some 308/328 clutches make it over 50K but many people go through them in under 10K because of improper use as much as anything. If you get over 100K on regualr car clutches, then a Ferrari clutch will probably last reasonably long as well. Ferrari clutches are made somewhat undersize in relation to power in order to save weight and improve engine response and perhaps to save expensive trannys as well.

Dave

 

Thank you.
One aspect that I'm sure you and many others may agree with is so far unmentioned.
Maintenance as part of the pleasure of Ferrari ownership.
Apart from the enjoyable camaradery of a small group of like minded enthusiasts, I also find maintenance an enjoyable aspect of my classic car ownership where I explore the design and engineering practace and philosophy of the marque.
In big boy's terms I get to tinker with it. To take it apart and see what makes it tic.
Part of my selection of mechanic is suitability as a guide to this process. He has to be prepared to have me in his shop and understand why I want to see inside the gearbox has nothing to do with trusting his work but my own enthusiasm for understanding my car.
Sure maintenance costs but so does any hobby and the car and feeding of classic cars is one of mine. To see it only as a financial burden is to miss a large part of what makes thses cars desirable, imho.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to give me some insight into this topic. I look forward to buying a car and am excited to work on it where appropriate like Modeler describes.

Joe

 

+1!
Porsche cars also expensive to maintain. The current labor rate at local Porsche dealership is $150 per hour.

 

This one will require above-average maintenance.

http://www.machovideo.com/article.php?article=11965

 

If the shop charges $150/hr how much does the tech make?

 

A mans gota know his limitations. I choise an early 308 carb car because I felt it was the easist to maintain. I did not have any concern about belt changes or WP rebuild or and mechanical work. I've always been a shade tree mechanic so I felt I could fix most problems. The area that was more of a concern was the cost of parts. I have done a few hybird conversions with chev to jag's so I have no concerns about FI but in a Ferrari the electronic components are the rarity and cost issues so thats why I went with carbs.So if you go with a 328 the maint. is similar to the 308's . If you go to a TR then I hope you have the cash for doing engine out service. I would like to have purchased a TR but I know my limitations. So good luck and enjoy .

 

Part of the maintainance issue is that the vast majority of the automotive world has moved to a non servicable throw away car. Excepting MB, Porsche, and the top exotics, all major car makers have taken that approach, and many started before most of us were ever born. Its not a new concept, GM starting building cars that way back in the 60's when they began putting the heater fan under the fender and screwing the car together with self threading screws. Honda and Toyota have one upped just about everyone by being able to build a car that will remain virtually trouble free for 100's of K's of miles without ANY maintainance, but in the end the car is completely destroyed and there is really nothing left to restore that wont cost many times the cars value.

The Ferrari is different in every aspect. While some have certainly driven them like a Honda and defered maintainance, in the end those cars have in most cases ended up as salvage. The truth of the matter, is that if you treated a Honda or Toyota or a GM car with the same maintainance Ferrari suggests, those cars would cost MORE. And on the other end is what they cost if you dont service them. I dont really think the service parts are that expensive, all things considered, but the labor has gotten quite rediculous. But if you can muster the time and energy to do the work yourself, you not only save the labor costs, you gain the advantage of becoming intimate with the car and understanding it on a level that cannot be duplicated.

Ferrari's arent for everyone. Those who have tried owning them without maintaining them have often been met with total horror when they recieved the repair estimate after the engine suddenly stopped running. But for those who find a way, are returned in spades for thier effort. And if I may be so bold, the ones who do their own wrenching gain the greatest joy. Its thrilling beyond measure to own one, more so yet to drive it, but its absolute nirvana to own and drive one you put together with your own two hands.

 

+1. The very first car I EVER wrenched myself is my Ferrari. My whole neighborhood thinks I am absolutely nuts!

But as Paul says and I quote again;

Oh, how true, to hear that engine fire-up after you have torn it down, fixed it and put it back together all by yourself................... Wow.