I don't see what all the fuss is about..... people should accept that it's a team sport, of which the driver is a central element. After all - no one complained at the '57 British Grand Prix at Aintree, when Moss and Fangio ran together for 55 laps and swapped position on the last. E
This is "Ferrari Chat" correct? I think Ferrari invented team orders. If it werent for them Schumi may have one less Title.
Excuse me, but if any one team "invented" team orders, it had to have been Mercedes Benz - going back well into the 1930s. Of course, they were not always obeyed. We had a watch party here in Dallas for the race - when the commentator noted before the non-pass that "McLaren of course specifically forbids any sort of Team Orders" - Tillman, Jimpo1, and myself were all heard to loudly cry out "Ya-shoor they do", and then came the obvious wave-by. "No team orders, right?" - the whole room jeered. At least Ferrari made it look rather artistic (and not so embarrasingly obvious) with that careful pit work last year that put Kimi ahead of Massa!
http://sports.yahoo.com/sportsminute You BETTER know it or else you might get hit by a flying pad! .....errrr skidpad that it!
I believe that team orders shold be legal, but they are not. So, change the rule, don't break it. (Why can't I pit under the safety car--that is a rule too.) Ron Dennis is self-righteous, I agree.
Thanks Jack, I believe I understand now. "Wussy" is the masculine version of the word, "wussie" would be the feminine version.
Nope. Team orders, as written in the FIA rulebook by the FIA says that team orders that affect the *result* of a race are banned. Even if Heiki was told to move over by Ron, it did not affect the result of the race. Hamilton was in the lead for several (what was it, 10 or so?) laps after he passed Massa and Piquet, so it's obvious that were he forced to pass Heiki without team orders, there is no way Heiki would have been able to hold him off for 8+ laps when Lewis was driving significantly faster. Therefore, even if Dennis did tell Heiki to move over, it doesn't make him a hypocrite, because by definition, team orders are those which affect the result of a race. If Dennis did complain to the FIA (and did he? I don't recall that), it was a different situation than what happened this weekend. If McLaren were hypocrites and did engage in team orders despite saying they do not, then either Alonso or Hamilton would be the WDC last year instead of Kimi. Kimi won precisely because there are no team orders at McLaren.
+1 Thankyou! It appears that if McLaren do it, it's cheating. If Ferrari do it then it becomes "sound strategy"........[At least according to this board - I bet the McL boards are diametrically opposed however....] Cheers, Ian
As per norm spot on. Mclaren/RD let there driver's race each other, last year was enough proof of that!!!
Who does Dennis thinks he's fooling? It was clear that he came onto the radio to Heikki just before the hairpin. Dennis also said that Heikki was far from happy about the move. And this move did effect the race result. Lewis gained a position and was able to go on and win. Again I'm all for team orders but Dennis is lying through his teeth.
No CRAP!! I mod a F1 site and have been bombarded with frivolous explanation's as to why McLaren is justified because Saint RD say's their are no team order's but when a tifosi call's them out we are deemed as cheat's? Simply pathetic imho.
Hey, come on people! This is getting ridiculous! RD gets on the radio to HK, something like: "LH is about to catch you up. He's lapping 1 to 2 seconds quicker than you. As you know we don't have team orders, beyond the CARDINAL RULE - do NOT take each other out!" Radio silence as HK digests the above..... [OK, RD probably didn't reiterate the 2nd part, but you get the idea, and HK does not want to get on the siht list (see, "Alonso, 2007" ] Now, while he could certainly have made LH' task more difficult, why would he? - His jobs on the line if he screws up, and LH did appear in his mirrors *awfully* quickly - Let him by and get on with his own race - Maybe even try and keep up and see where LH is faster?..... This is why I believe the rule is "affecting the outcome" - Almost anyone could see LH was going to get by sooner or later - Make it later and he's on the siht list, best case, worst case he wrecks 'em both. Remember, neither of 'em are much more than rookies As always, my 02c, Cheers, Ian
The whole issue is not if or when Lewis would overtake Heikki. The issue is that the McLaren lamb's are calling it a legit no team order's pass without having even the slightest 'insider knowledge' to backup their claim's but when Ferrari did it they are yelling cheater's? The 'hollier than thou' attitude from McLaren lamb's is rather sickening imho.
The Holier Than Thou attitude is pervasive on these boards. I notice an awful lot of commentators complaining about McLaren in this thread are among the same lauding Massa for moving over to let Kimi win. I think the no team orders rule is dumb but we have Austria 2002 to thank for that. Either you accept the fact that teams will utilize strategy to win races and titles or you don't. Don't go complaining about McLaren in Germany unless you are equally willing to criticize Ferrari for orchestrating Brazil 2007. I don't think Ferrari did anything wrong last year and I don't think McLaren did anything wrong this past GP. I am continually amazed at the sheer pettiness and vindictiveness to all F1 participants who are not named Ferrari on these boards. Are you guys Racing fans or not?!?
I also have no issue's with a team allowing the faster driver to pass his teammate regardless if it's for a win or point's.
Again, simply incorrect. An assumption based on speculation, neither of which is accurate. 1) How do you now that Ron told Heiki to move over? He says he told Heiki what Lewis' pace is and Heiki decided to let him by 2) Heiki was not going to hold off Lewis. Lewis was getting by Heiki either way. The only question is was he going to have to fight for it or was Heiki going to make it easy 3) Since Lewis was going to get past Heiki anyway, and since Lewis was in P1 for a good 8-10 laps after passing Piquet, it stands to reason that Lewis could have taken 6 or 7 laps to pass Heiki and still have passed Piquet for the win. 4) Since Lewis is a good passer, and was so much faster than Heiki, and since Lewis proved his passing ability on Massa and Piquet, it is indisputable that he would have passed Heiki within a couple of laps, even if Heiki tried to hold him off. Lewis was just *that* much quicker. 5) Given that Lewis had plenty of time to pass Heiki, even if Heiki put up a fight, and STILL would have had plenty of time to catch and pass Massa and Piquet, then even if Heiki moved over, it did NOT affect the results of the race. 6) Since it demonstrably did not affect the outcome of the race, it was not team orders as banned by the FIA and no penalty is warranted. Now, if you say otherwise, back it up with something factual!
The same could be said for all those backing McLaren's action's and dissing Ferrari for doing the same thing wouldn't you agree? What get's me is that the people supporting McLaren seem to KNOW the fact's as if they worked for McLaren and were in the pit's, talk about calling the kettle black!
I just don't get it!! Mike say's it as it is, in black and white with the facts that are available , nobody is saying it otherwise.
No, I don't agree. Because as I said in my post, the team orders rule is written that it is banned to use team orders that affect the outcome of the race. Lewis got by Heiki in 1 lap. He was only behind Massa for maybe 1-2 laps before he passed him. He was only behind Piquet for 1-2 laps before he passed him too. Then he was in the lead for something like 10 laps. Would Hamilton have passed Heiki anyway? Obviously the answer is yes. Would Heiki have held up Hamilton for 10 laps? I don't see how anyone could reasonably think so. Hamilton was a ton faster. There's no way Heiki was going to hold him for 10 laps. Therefore, even *IF* Ron told Heiki to move over (and we don't know that he did), it didn't affect the outcome of the race, and therefore is not "team orders" as banned by the FIA, ergo McLaren did nothing wrong. The difference between that and Brazil '07 is that Ferrari most definitely used team orders. How can I say it with such certainty? Well, Massa was faster than Kimi all wekeend, and dominated the race right until the end. Then Kimi gets the lead right at the end. We knew Massa was faster, yet Kimi was allowed to take the win. That affected the outcome of the race, and it was team orders and team orders affecting results are banned. Ergo, Ferrari broke the rules. Having said that, it's a stupid rule that I do not agree with and I don't think Ferrari should have done anything differently, nor should they be penalized for it. I don't think McLaren broke any rules and I don't think they should be penalized for it, even if I thought they had infact broken the rules.
