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racing harness-348

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by brian.s, Dec 8, 2005.

  1. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Brian
    Before I engineer and fabricate one, is there any proprietary source for the shoulder harness install into a 92 348?

    ta, regards,
    Brian
    www.autocarsportsandclassics.com
     
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  3. Ira Schwartz

    Ira Schwartz Formula 3
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    May 20, 2003
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    Why not just copy the 348 Challenge 5-point racing harness installation?
     
  4. Dr.T348

    Dr.T348 Formula 3

    Jan 8, 2004
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    Richard T.
    Omp was the original supplier. The original Challege harness was 2 in. 4 point. Later went to 3 in. 5 point. I bought a used one recently from Martin at Cavallino Motors. They are available new from Omp and other manufactures.
     
  5. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
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    If you're actually planning on driving the car on the track, buying a used harness is not a good idea. Racing harnesses have limited life-spans, and a used harness can be questionable. IMHO, there is no reason NOT to buy new. It's the same reason you don't buy a cheap, used helmet. My $.02.
     
  6. N24RE

    N24RE Formula Junior

    Dec 8, 2003
    532
    Greensboro NC
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    Steve Jones
    www.racerwholesale.com

    Never buy used harnesses that are out of date. They are like tires. they may look fine but if they are out of date it is nor worth the risk at high speed. Also do you have a roll bar in the car? Harnesses without a roll bar is a BAD idea.

    Harnesses only means that you will be trapped as the highest point in the car if it rolls over and the roof collapses. The results are not good. If you simply want harness to hold you in place for track day I suggest only using the lap belt portion for safety sake.

    Best,

    Steve

    PS..here is my setup.

    http://www.f1design.us/extras/Type_R/typer-roll-bar/index.htm
     
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  8. Dr.T348

    Dr.T348 Formula 3

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    Bought it for fun. $50 compared to $450 new. Good condition and as good as seat belt or better. Considering I only have done one track day and may only due one occaisionally I would again think 3 in. 6 point harness (even used) is better than 1.5 in. oem seat belt.

    Otherwise you are right, it has an experation date and cannot be used in sanctioned racing. If I were going to race i would need alot more modificatons as well. Thanks for the heads up.

    Yes, I do have the rear portion of the rear roll cage from the factory Challenge kit.

    Just to note that in some states (IL) the racing harness is illegal in a street car.
     
  9. Samy

    Samy Formula Junior

    Dec 2, 2005
    603
    Where is the harness mounted on the 348? On the rollcage and in front on the original points like the normal seat belt?
    ____________
    Samy
     
  10. Dr.T348

    Dr.T348 Formula 3

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    There are 2 o-rings mounted on the back firewall above the ecu and 2 o-rings mounted on the floor to either side of the seat. I have the 348 Challenge regulation/parts book at home and can try to post pics later today.

    The harness has clips on the end and clips to the o-rings.
     
  11. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    Nov 3, 2003
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    OK, can anyone tell me
    1)if there are mount points available already in a 348 which are used in the Challenge cars?
    2) if anybody has an existing set-up for a 348 which could be copied?
    3) how many people would be interested in a bolt-in harness bar set-up?

    Please note that this is about the mounting process for 5 or 6 point harness.

    Thanks, Brian
     
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  13. Dr.T348

    Dr.T348 Formula 3

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    #10 Dr.T348, Dec 8, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  14. DMOORE

    DMOORE Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
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    Darrell
    I would be carefull installing a race harness system without a cage. You might want to check out a system like Schroth, it's made for street cars without cages, and mounts to the factory points. It also has a built in antisubmarine device. It's actually TUV approved, a hard rating to get, and only run about $150 bucks. I ran them in my Porsche before I installed a cage. You can find them at Demon Tweeks. Best regards.

    Darrell.
     
  15. Samy

    Samy Formula Junior

    Dec 2, 2005
    603
    There are many harnesses available for use without an cage .. sabelt, schroth, sandtler (www.sandtler.de has all brands and sorts). With Tüv are normaly only the smallest versions like on schroth the 2" 3 point. The other 3" 4, 5, 6 points are without an tüv paper. But with fia certificate wich is normaly enough to get the tüv with them. On the side the standard mounting points of the seats should be stable but on the rear i would build an stable good point if the challange original point isn't on the normal models.
    ________________
    Samy
     
  16. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    19,997
    socal
    Installing 348C kit is not easy. You need to weld in a box at the base of the B-piller to use the rear half of the OMP cage. You need to drill and tap and or weld in nuts in the box so you can bolt the cage in. This allows for dual use. Also all the back fascia has to be removed for clearance. I know because I did this. If you use stock seats then use a 6 point harness with formula style anti sub straps and use it parachute style. Nothing else is acceptable. You can use the car stock this way for casual DE's. If you get more serious put the roll cage rear in. It is a decent set-up that is bolted in. 348C uses small plate anchors to anchor the shoudler harnesses to the bulk head. Thre is a big cross bar high on the rear shelf below the rear window. This is the biggest piece of metal. Again you need to drill tap nut weld and then weld the anchor. If you need a picture let me know. 348C is a very compromised set-up a balance between cost and safety that is more I want to look like a racer than be a true race set-up. There is a long way between street dual use and full race. You can also make your life easy by welding in a harness bar on the rear cage half. Then bolt the cage and attach the shoulder harness to that point. Be very careful if you get addicted to the sport and want to use a HANS in the future. Then you harness bar should be 1" higher than w/o HANS. HANS has very specific mounting requirements so that it can work properly. Always hold shoulder harness positions on the harness bar with tubing collars not zipties! If you can make a b-piller box you can make floor anchors to mount the lap belts and anti-subs. It is all pretty basic. Big improvements can be found over stock by using 348/355C challenge wheels and DOT race tires or full slicks and even a mild race alignment. I got extra Challenge wheels if anyone needs them.
     
  17. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    OK, can anyone tell me
    1)if there are mount points available already in a 348 which are used in the Challenge cars?

    NO you have to weld them


    2) if anybody has an existing set-up for a 348 which could be copied?

    Too bad I just gutted mine out.



    Please note that this is about the mounting process for 5 or 6 point harness.

    Thanks, Brian[/QUOTE]
     
  18. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    #15 enjoythemusic, Dec 9, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Use the Schroth Profi-IIasm on the 308GTS here and must say they are indeed impressive. They are also the ONLY 4-way belt that is DOT legal for those of you who have to deal with retentive officers in the United States. Have a 5th point but as you noted, the belts have a built-in anti-sub and also are designed to give a bit more stretch towards the inside shoulder belt to keep the driver inward in the car during frontal impact.

    Researched MANY belts and went with Schroth. Would love to go full cage, though that is not legal (i believe) for street driving in the USA. Seems strange as it is SAFER, but those wacky US laws and lawyers.
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  19. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    thanks for the more informative answers regarding the MOUNTING of a harness. Looks as though there is a need to fabricate a shoulder strap mount which will still require drilling extra holes along with using the existing mounting places. My customer is not wanting any type of roll cage at this time.

    Brian
     
  20. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    If you don't want to drill holes there are three mounting plates for this purpose in which you can design and bend a harness bar. Then you could bolt the harness bar in and leave the stock equipment. Under the left right fascia under the window is the mounting points of the shoulder belt uses in some model years. Many model years use the center mounting points also under the rear window to mount the OEM belts. So you fashion a nice bar to these 3 places and attach your shoulders here. Then you could make a lap belt bar in the rear seat holes anchors and add the 6pt sub too. Ferrari must think these little 8mm x 1.25 bolts and nut anchor is strong because the 348 seat belt anchor is on the seat. So that seat must have been designed to withstand maybe 20g's at 300lbs? In general these look pretty wimpy to me and I would not use them. But they part of the Ferrari engineered design.
     
  21. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    Thank you for the type of response and answer I was looking for.

    Regards and season's greetings,

    Brian
     
  22. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
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    Rob Schermerhorn
    Just to clarify for the archives... the original Challenge harness was a 6 point formula-style anti-sub belts, yes 2" wide shoulder and lap belts.
    In the US series it was immediately accepted to change to any manufacturers 3" wide 6 point belt system.

    I built the 3rd 348 Challenge in the US... the former Jim Kenton yellow now owned by a member of our comunity here....

    Best regards,

    Rob
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    I think these cars may have come in many flavors. The 1994 challenge book shows that part of the Challenge kit was a 5th point antisub anchor which implies a 5 pt harness. However, Rexrcr's assertion of 6pt formula makes sence too since the lap belt anchors would have been used for the 6pt antisub parachute style that would have played into the formula style 6pt. harness . So it may have gone either way. For the track I don't see why anyone would use anything other than the latest technology which is 6pts because 6points offers superior anti-sub ability and therfore faster lock-up of the lapbeltwhich controls the pelvis. Interestingly for those using a HANS Dr. Melvin's slead tests show superior HANS effect with superior pelvis control... an unexpected sideeffect of better overall retention.
     
  24. Samy

    Samy Formula Junior

    Dec 2, 2005
    603
    Were the Challange seats also on the street cars not moveable? Mounted static on the chassis or like stock were i can move the seat back and forward? If its static how did they get it trough the tüv f.e. in germany its not allowed to mount not movable seats on the drivers side. Also it has to be up to 10-15° adjustable but this the most doesn't look for otherwise such an carbon seat never would pass the tüv in germany.
    ___________________
    Samy
     
  25. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
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    Challenge competition preparation rules mandate fixed in place seats. I did build some customer cars with the original slider, it was very easy. Forced to convert to fixed mounts though.

    Full Challenge preparation is for off-highway, competition use. The kit only needed to comply with FIA safety standards.

    Best regards,

    Rob
     
  26. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

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    #23 rexrcr, Dec 14, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  27. Dr.T348

    Dr.T348 Formula 3

    Jan 8, 2004
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    Richard T.
    The factory Challenge cars in '94 came with regular 348 "street" interiors including stock 348 seats mounted on adjustable tracks. The seats were removed and replaced with carbon fiber racing seats as part of the challenge kit.
     
  28. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    I have seen some street challenge car with an articulating "speciale" seat. It was faced in tan leather and had carbon backs. Reiner on this board has them in his car. Maybe he can shot you a pic.. The real challenge race seat was carbon and kevlar by OMP and looked like a copy of the old OMP VID seat. It was red cloth and had the 348 challenge script on it. I'm short and I tried sliders on the OMP mounts and hit my head on the roof with a helmet on. So a fixed seat on the floor is the only way to go to get any clearance otherwise you have to rake your seat back and drive looking over your nose.
     

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