Racing Simulators

Richard, downloading F1 1979 now! Can't wait to drive the 179 Alfa. Ran one of those out of my shop a while ago. Drove it around on the street near the shop! Never again!

-Peter

 

1980's Formula Ford chassis with 550BHP and 50 gallons of fuel

 

OMFG! The Alfa was good, but the Ferrari at Monza, well that's something! It's going to be a late night.

-Peter

 

The Virgin Shuttle sim was crap. For a better shuttle sim, go here:
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/gallery.html
Or if it is full manual reentries you crave, go here:
http://www.x-plane.com/features.html

For a really good LEM sim go to:
http://eaglelander3d.com/
There is even a news group and these guys are serious. And yes, the onboard computer is working, you can program for things like High gate etc.

And just in case you get nostalgic:
http://www.aokwom.com/

Armaggeddon? Let's not even go there. Despite all its flaws I liked Space Cowboys a LOT better.

Coming back to the thread: You guys now really wetted my appetite for GTR2 (I have GTR).

 

First I have both.
PC: While there is the advantage of being to download tracks and cars
for Sims that have developed a following, Grand Prix Legands for example.
You have all of the PC issues: Video drivers, audio drivers, and controller issues. Unless you want to allocate a PC for a particular Sim's use, you will be spending a lot of your time keeping it working (compatable) with your sim.
Console:As long it is the Current Model you will be able to get Sim's
as long the 'sim of your choice' is 'popular' and controllers.
The best thing about consoles for the most part they 'work' without installing drivers (current exception XBOX 360's Microsofts Wheel). If your Sim is avaiable on a console and you would rather DRIVE than 'install drivers', I would reccomend the console. Console bonus: is your TV bigger than your
computer's monitor - size does matter - here.

I can remember when I saw INDYCAR (from Papyrus) and it had Laguna Seca's 'corkscrew' perfectly rendered. I bought the Sim before I bought a PC
( I was an Apple II+ then Amiga owner).

So, if it is on a console, get the console, you will be glad you did.
Now does anybody know where I can get a driver.... wrong Forum

Merry Christmas

stephen

 

I totally agree! As realistic as the game is, it is still a game. That said, I still love playing it for fun! If Ive got a couple of hours to kill one evening its the perfect amusement. Doesnt replace real racing, and its not meant to! Im a track and autocross junkie in real life, but I love getting to enjoy both worlds once in a while!

 

GTR1 was actually alot more difficult than GTR2. It did have a low speed grip problem, although now they've gone and overcorrected it. Overall though it isn't too bad. It's still alot more realistic than any racing game on any console...

 

Whilst I agree to an extent I have never had any driver issues with any of the games I play (GTR, GTR2, rFactor, F1C inc. all mods) it took a little bit of effort to get GPL to work but only required once and now its fine too.

Driver stability has come along way with the advent of DX8/9/10.

Plus a PC can easily be LOADS more powerful than any console.

But consoles are more "plug-in and play" - agreed again - and hence more "gamey" providing that instant fix that has been mentioned above.

 

The "low speed grip problem" is common to people new to sims, its at low speeds that the lack of g-force and "feel" is most felt. I remember Papyrus talking about "feeling like driving on ice" with GPL (which did have an issue with its low speed tyre model incidently). But driving a sim is very much like driving on ice as on ice you dont build the g's up to feel them before the tyres let go. The difference with a sim is the speed is higher and ultimately you "feel the g's" through your eyes - thats when you get the best out of the games but its a long learning curve.

GTR1's game engine was very closely related to F1-2002/F1-Challenge by EA, SimBin bought the code direct from ISI who went on to develop rFactor. There was no fundamental low speed grip issue with F1C, so I guess the numbers were wrong in GTR maybe. One thing is for sure though, its all good fun

Merry Xmas.

 

If you want the ultimate simulator..........

http://www.force-dynamics.com/index.php

Forget force feed steering wheels this is the real deal!

 

I was thinking more along the lines of the one they had at Bethpage. But it was a little busy, back in the '60s/early '70s.

Hey, you have to respect a perfect record: they didn't get one single thing right.

SC was fun, despite the sophomoric conspiracy theory plot.
(The Shepherd's prayer. )

"Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with XP."

 

I will attempt to answer the question 'Do you feel Racing simulators help improve real world driving on the track?'

I have not read the entire thread, so if I do repeat some of the replies posted earlier, I apologise in advance.

Like someone mentioned in the earlier replies, Formula 1 drivers and aviators alike use simulators these days to somewhat a large extent to better their skills, and so simulators must help to improve real world handling, be it aircraft or race cars. This is true provided the game or 'simulator' (personally I think this word is loosely use here) models exactly after the real thing, ie. engine performance, medium (for aircraft it would be air density and for cars I'm guessing it would be the contact between the tyre and road - things like road conditions, material and tyre temperature), rate of change (expected heading/altitude changes in response to driver/pilot input), rush factor (depth perception, 3D presentation), realism (360 view - ie. dome, cockpit mock up) and more importantly the presentation of various contingency scenarios. In layman's term, fidelity.

At this point, I think I should qualify myself so that some of you guys here won't think I'm smoking pot. My work revolves around flying and therefore I know a little about flight simulators. I'm not familiar with race car simulators but I think the principles are roughly similar. The 2 main utilities of simulators are familiarisation of cockpit switches and working the driver/pilot through the various contingencies situations (what to do and in what sequence when something goes wrong). The latter is the more important of the 2, and I think that's what the formula 1 teams are doing as well. The many switches on the steering wheel necessitates the driver in this instance to be familiar with which switch/es to select and in a specific order when problems are encountered. The simulator is a more cost effective and safer option when compared to putting the drivers through the whole works of the real deal which can sometimes be quite dangerous.

To build a good simulator, I think it requires some engineers as well as operators inputs. And such simulators typically take a couple of years to go into production, not to mention the cost. In fact most of the flight simulators out there aren't absolutely realistic because there isn't a real need for it. Most trainee aviators don't go solo straight after simulator training (though there are some such as the single-seat A-10s, F22s, etc. and it can be quite scary) because most aircraft are either tandem seats or side-by-side. I have not experienced some of the 'simulators' recommended here such as GT2 or Forza, so I'm not in the position to comment on its fidelity. But IMHO, I think that while it may appear very realistic and fun, I'm somehow skeptical about how much someone who already knows how to drive can benefit from it. Though I will agree that a non-driver or a new driver can possibly gain some driving-sense from it.

So IMHO, if you want to learn the ropes, it's best to hit the tracks and practise day and night and under various road conditions. Off-the-shelf 'simulators' while extremely fun can sometimes create a false sense of self ability.

my 2 cents.

 

Many thanks Peter and guess my judgement, based on the Xbox system, is faulty. Looks like i need to buy a dedicated computer system, programs, and supporting hardware (seat, wheel, etc) to REALLY see what a proper simulator can do. My Xbox experience is limited (5 hours a month) and frankly it bores me in short order.

Yes, looks like a proper sim can help. For me, i really need to feel the body/head G-forces, those subtle but important brake pedal cues, steering wheel tell-tales, etc. Call it touch and feel.. and sound. Agree, the transition from the 2915 lbs wet/driver Ferrari 308 to lil 1150 lbs wet/driver FC car will be a learning experience... to perhaps an initial SHOCK of how much more one can achieve with less engine, less weight... and more of other things (aero, braking ability, etc).

FYI: have been culling through the FC's previous owners Pi2 data and comparing it to my 308's data. While the very basics are there, the difference in braking point, g-forces, etc are not subtle. Of course the basic ideas are nearly the same, yet as you know the difference are very important.

Data, data, data. Welcome to the age of computers

 

Agree concerning my experience with the Xbox. The sim lacks feel and touch. The GESTAL of everything working in concert.

Agreed, but also disagree. Maybe it is just me, but i do not like purely "feeling" the g's through my eyes. It seems un-real.

Reminds me of the learning curve i had to conquer when playing early generation Simmons drums. Real drums use heads that are tightened to a certain degree and as you play said real drums you get a feel and feedback. Early Simmons electrnonic drums, on the other hand, used a non-adjustable very hard surface and when playing the drums they did not feel correct. There was virtually no touch/feel to them.

Sure the later generation electronic drums got better, and i presently have the Roland Session Pro electrnic drumset that uses adjustable heads that do provide give and good feel, yet it is still not quite 'real.' There are small, subtle, yet VERY important difference to achieve the sound i desire. Sure the new generation top line Roland electronic drums are good, but they are most definatly not the real thing and are limiting in the overall amount of quantitave results due to input.

 

When Richard talks about "feeling the g's through your eyes," I can relate to that completely. Because so much of the real-world coaching and instruction I do is based on honing driver's visual senses, this makes perfect sense.

One of the ways I tell can tell rather early in the corner in a real car whether I am going to stay on-course or go off, is by constantly comparing and "reconciling" the "sight picture" and rate at which that "sight picture" is changing. If the sight picture is calm and then it moves abruptly, I know what the car is doing (or going to do), by the rate and way the sight picture is changing well before the g-forces tell me that there is a problem and that gives me enough time to do something about it and, hopefully, fix it!

One of the reasons why sims work for me is by providing improvements in my "ocular technique" (that I can apply directly to the race track) because the "physics" of the simulation can be close enough to the real thing that when I drive the car too far into the corner and TTO (or the car develops a push), it is clear that car is ceasing to respond to my control inputs and I can assimilate what is presented to me on the screen.

I can see how your Xbox experience could seem more like an arcade and less "real life" because you find it boring. It's not "realistic" enough to pique and keep your interest!

Honestly though, if an IMSA great like Bob Earl and a driver who has turned coaching into not only a decent living but a nationwide program (Ross Bentley) can see the benefit of this in coaching experienced racing drivers, there has to be something to it! <grin>

I can't wait to hear about your FTO in the Continental, Steve. Congratulations again!

Hey Richard, the 312T4 at the Monza is really cool! The second Lesmo is getting pretty quick and the Parabolica is awesome!

-Peter

 

Many thanks for understanding. BTW, was looking at websites of products that are seat items with hydrolics... WOW those things are big $$$$!!! Way cool, but then i think, hmm, that $$$ can be spent on track time.

While i DO see the video sim visuals and they do help greatly... and do understand what the car is doing, it all seems so... well... not real. It misses the physical part. I would assume it is akin to watching pron films versus, well...

My apologies if the lack of physical interaction is a hang up, but it simply is. Of course video sim/games DO help me see a track's rhythm and lines and learn it. Have used Xbox to see what the sim makers/programmes feel a Formula Ford can do at various tracks and compared that to other vehicles using the same video sim title. It is interesting and as i said, i do play the sim, yet it just doesn't quite 'do it' for me in a gestalt kinda way.

Thanks my friend, color me excited and cautious, realistic and hopeful, and... all at the same time. Am so anxious to strap in and go. Fortunately have a very good support system/crew around me when needed and realistic enough to realize Rome was not built in a day. It takes time hone skills in a new car. It will also prove if i have even a small amount of the skill i feel i have, or am just pissing on a spark plug.

 

This is my next purchase, the FREX GP SimConMOTION.

Check out the video here: http://www.frex.com/gp/

-Peter

 

Has anyone tried Drivers Republic? Its a new indie developed game that is supposed to have the best of the best in physics. It is currently in a closed alpha test, but current testers have invites for new ones. If anyone has an extra it would be awesome if you could hook me up.

At some point, although it isn't even available in this test, you will be able to "build" your own car. Not sure exactly how it will work, or how much creativity you will be able to bring, but if done right it would be amazing. The ability to design your own car (ie choose suspension types and points, body type, engine displacement, type etc) then go race it would be awesome. But only if it is done right, and isn't another "tuner" option set.

 

Peter, i have a question. Let us say you have nothing and you want the full computer, program, seat, hydrolics, shiftewr, pedals... How much are we talking about financially? Am curious... and bored as i look outside at the snow and a large enclosed 18x7 ft trailer with a Ferrari in it gathering dust (the FC is at the US distributor getting tweaked).

 

Probably too much for "casual" gaming! <grin>

I estimate:

$3500 decent PC
$300 Logitech G25 steering wheel and pedals
$400 decent surround sound PC speakers (Logitech, Klipsch)
$1000 for a 42" plasma display or LCD projector and screen
Build your own cockpit. Wood or metal or
$2000 SimConMOTION
$500 Sparco or OMP seat for SimConMotion

I'm playing on a Apple 23" Cinema Display with Cambridge Soundworks 5.1 speakers on a computer I built for around $2K three years ago and a Momo Formula Force Logitech wheel. It's perfectly adequate and I've probably got around $3500 total in everything.

-Peter (don't miss those New England winters!)

 

Peter -

Can't wait to check this stuff out! I'm in for the whole set-up if you will get me started.

Cheers, g

 

Yes, "computer" gaming helps my real world driving.

Amazingly though, its an online tank game from 1995 that has probably had the biggest affect on my driving. Most such games are spawn/shoot/die, but this had sometimes a minute or more between a firefight in some scenarios - positioning was very important to winning. I learned to predict people, what they do, where they go, to make a "profile" on anyone I fought in game. I would then direct my teammates, based on what the enemy was likely to do, and we'd be there before them, wipe 'em out. When I started learning to drive, I applied the same principal, and I have a good idea of what the cars around me are thinking and doing. Kind funny to point to a car, tell my passenger it will turn left two lights from now, and sure 'nough, it does.

I have always enjoyed racing sims, and it gave me a big advantage in vehichle dynamics before I ever even got behind a driver's seat of my own car. I could shift perfectly and smoothly, threshold brake, etc. For someone just getting into it, if you have to "feel" things, try older open wheeled cars, such as GPL. The suspension and tire motion will keep you into things much better.

My first program was Indy 500 as a kid, and with constant trying, I picked up on some basic handling characterics of cars, eventualy turning in 230MPH laps.

GPL was given to me by a gentleman who simply could not get around the track in it. I never got good at it then, but pulled it out years later, and fell in love. Its still one of my favourites. Balance and sensitivity is very important, you get the feel of trying to hurtle the car around, and its so light just the slightest changes affect it. Trying to squeeze through some spots at Spa entering at 190MPH is NOT lacking in excitement.

I also like making my own content, so have been active with Racer for a while. You can make some fairly fun to drive contraptions, but the game isn't perfect yet.

 

I once estimated that my racing sim cost about 5 to 6k. Sounds like a lot, but then again I see what bills my friend pays for just one racing weekend (10k is normal for him). Over the years I have destroyed dozens if not hundreds of Ferraris.

But to me the main reason for racing virtual instead of real is the amount of time I can allocate to this: I can always hop in the sim and do a few laps, but going to the nearest track costs me about an hour (one way).

 

What I meant by "feeling the g's through your eyes" was in relation to getting the most fun and sense of feel out of the simulation i.e. get good at sim driving. Thats what you must learn to enjoy these "games". They are different to reality but once you can grasp the visual cues and attach them to your car control within the sim environment the more you will be able to extract the performance out of the cars - and thats when the grins start appearing on your face!

Current racing car simulators help the driver to learn circuits they have yet to visit (reduces the work load once at the track) - as an example of this a friend of mine raced at Leguna Seca for the first time this year. He learnt the circuit from racing sims and subsequently was 3rd quickest to the works Porsche's in LMP2 testing for the Le Mans Series race.

They also help with learning cockpit control functions as mentioned above and even some F1 teams use sims to create data for putting engines through simulated race distances via simulators. The sims have been developed more and more in F1 as testing has been reduced.

Sims also train your mental state - the ability to focus on a task with sufficient concentration to succeed and if you get involved with online racing / competition then you can also develop race craft too.

You won't learn to be a fast racing driver just "playing sims" but the sim has become a tool to help with the job of race driver coaching and car development, and is increasingly being used in these fields.

Personally I just love to have the opportunity to try old cars on old circuits. Motor racing really has become sanitised in the last 20 years for obvious safety reasons - but there aint no danger in a sim so places like Rouen the Osterreichring and a chicane-less Le Mans are all a mouse click away.

Peter - have you heard that there is a group of guys developing the complete Targa Florio for Grand Prix Legends (in 3 flavours now 65, 67 and 69) the whole 44 mile lap! Times are in the region of 35 minutes per lap, the tarmac is layed and they are making their way around adding the Italian countryside - cant wait!

p.s. I know what you mean about the old Lesmo's - current version pales into insignificance to the challange of the old ones

A warning for those looking at getting into sim racing though, real motor racing is all about money, virtual motor racing is all about time - and dont forget "time is money"

 

I heard (and read) about this about a year ago, but then lost track of them.
Got a link?

BTW: I know it is GPL based, so I'm thinking about transferring the track to NASCAR2000, where the P4 add-on kit would give you a chance to drive the Targa Florio in the proper car.