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  1. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    May 8, 2008
    1,189
    Sydney, Australia
    Full Name:
    Chanh Lê Huy
    3967GT at the 62 Paris 1000km that it won outright (under the Nart banner, driven by Pedro and Riccardo Rodriguez), then at the 62 Sebring 12hr driven by Roger Penske & Augie Pabst when it won its class. Since the car was restored "better than new", one can assume that there is not much history "patina" left from this important car... Note that in between these races the car was modified with an extra fender vent and repainted blue/white.

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    Also pics of 3967 from the Paris exhibit of 2011 (pics from Arthomobiles), more perfect than when it left the factory...
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  2. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    May 8, 2008
    1,189
    Sydney, Australia
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    Chanh Lê Huy
    Not contesting that at all. He has some of the most significant cars in the world. The problem is what he has done about some of them re over-restoring them...
     
  3. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

    May 14, 2017
    554
    I understand, and I appreciate the sentiments that some have about collectors like Ralph Lauren. I just personally don't like livery, dents, rust, dry and cracked seats, etc. I don't care where that "patina" came from, it's still ugly. Restoration doesn't erase a cars provenance, particularly given that these cars have been altered so often over the years.

    I recently went to see the Ferrari exhibit at the Petersen Automotive Museum in Los Angeles and saw this first hand. There were a couple beautifully restored cars on display that stole the show. There were also a couple of unrestored cars that needed some serious restoration. For example, the 250 LM on display had plenty of patina. I personally would much prefer to see Ralph Lauren's car or 6045 - both beautifully restored. Perfection, over restored - whatever you call it, I much prefer to see these incredible cars looking their absolute best, clean and well conditioned. Of course, I don't own any of these amazing vintage classics, but if I did I would do the same.
     
  4. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    May 8, 2008
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    Chanh Lê Huy
    Do you understand that the 250LM that you saw at Petersen's was left unrestored for a good reason? It's because that car was the last car to win the Le Mans 24hr for Ferrari and is basically left untouched since. You can restore cars many times but originality exists once. About your point on the cars "looking their very best", RL took some liberties on the restoration of the cars by not replicating the original colours (the silver on his SL is not an original MB silver but a silver shade that RL likes), and by doing heresy: his prized Bugatti Atlantic was original and untouched until he decided to redoing it completely even with a paint colour that does not exist in the Bugatti colour. You call this perfection? when you say "clean and well conditioned", it's because everything is new in the cars: not the original leathers, not the original paint and who knows about the original parts... I'm sorry but this is not perfection. the closest to "perfection" is what the cars would have been when they left the factory, not modified to the taste of RL without any regards to the history of the cars, the material used etc.

    Here's what he said in an Vanity Fair Article: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2011/01/ralph-lauren-garage-201101: "And if a car doesn’t look perfect, Ralph Lauren will make it so. “These Bugattis were light blue,” he said, stopping in front of a 1934 Type 59 Grand Prix. “I said I wanted them black. I wanted to restore them as I thought they should ideally be.” He moved on to two Mercedes, one a Gullwing coupe, the other a 300SL Roadster, both painted in a color that is almost, but not quite, the standard German silver. Lauren’s cars have a touch of cream mixed in. “I got the right color, I got the right leather,” he said. “These cars are all what you dream they should be.” That's says it all about the man IMO...
     
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  5. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

    May 14, 2017
    554
    We do agree on one thing - I am all about restoring cars to their original condition. As for "patina", to me at least, it isn't all that important. I understand why it is to some, but it it isn't to me. If I had a big dent, rust and ripped leather in my car because it raced at LeMans, I'd restore the car to prestine, and yes, original condition (whatever that means with some of these cars). I like cars, all cars, looking their best, not all dinged and dented.




     
  6. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,725
    Roswell, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Charles
    The car was taken out of italy "supposedly" for mechanical work in switzerland but the train never stopped till it was at a port in France. Possession is 9/10 of the law.. I got to ride in it for a few laps in WPB with Gordon Murry driving.
     
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  8. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 Veteran
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    Mar 2, 2005
    9,602
    Here I am in 0792 TR a couple years ago, in Montauk, Long Island.

    Marcel Massini

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  9. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 18, 2010
    477

    Marcel, nice pic of you and M.R. in that TR.
     
  10. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

    May 14, 2017
    554


    That car is amazing.
     
  11. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 Veteran
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    Mar 2, 2005
    9,602
    Yes, M.R. even managed to avoid a deer racing over the street when we arrived at a speed of well over 120 miles/hr.
    Will never forget that. A memorable day indeed.

    Marcel Massini
     
  12. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 18, 2010
    477
    I agree with all of your points, though I would like to add a correction about R.L.'s Bugatti Atlantic. When he bought that car, it was definitely not "original and untouched." It had already been over-restored by Tom Perkins (previous owner, now deceased) who sold him the Bugatti along with other cars. Perkins had it painted in a shade of blue similar to the way it was many years ago, but not exact, also trimmed the interior in a non original shade of light beige leather, and chrome plated the wire wheels. The car always rode on wire wheels, but they were originally painted, not chromed. R.L. as we all know, changed the body and interior colors and the wheels, and also modified various details on the car. It might be his car and his money, but it is nonetheless a travesty and shows a complete lack of appreciation and understanding on his part about the history of these vehicles.
     
    ferrarip4 likes this.
  13. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 18, 2010
    477
    That certainly must have been a very memorable day....especially with the deer! If I had been in the passenger seat..... think I would have needed to change my pants after that!:D
     
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  15. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 Veteran
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    Mar 2, 2005
    9,602
    One has to keep in mind that RL bought the Atlantic back in 1988 in a package that also included the Trossi MB SSK. Back then, 29 years ago, the way of thinking about classic cars and their restoration etc was totally different than it is today, in 2017. The classic car world has changed completely since 1988. Not trying to defend RL but one must consider the "standards" from 1988 as well. As for the Ferraris RL purchased most significant ones between 1983 and 1988. Life back then was totally different. Some fchatters weren't even born yet and people still used carrier pigeons.

    Marcel Massini
     
  16. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 18, 2010
    477
    Yes, you're right. I do remember when he bought those cars, and was buying many others, and yes, restoration was totally different back then.....though, some friends/collectors were keeping cars as original when they could. Certainly not many of them, but a few who had a different view, and different set of standards.

    I was born in '59, and I still like using my carrier pigeon, but he is getting a little slow now.
     
  17. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    7,309
    Marcel,
    btw.- did you ever drive this kind of great cars by yourself?
     
  18. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
    1,525
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    Reading these comments regarding Ralph Lauren reminds me of a particularly odious case of John Mozarts Bugatti "La Petite Suzanne" that won Pebble in '98 and was roundly decried by the British automobile media, especially Classic and Sportscar because a group of Brits felt it was not painted the right shade of Blue. Despite Winston Goodfellow, Andy Rheault and others showing that the car was indeed not painted light blue as per usual practice but instead was painted by Corsica in a darker shade of blue, the British cottage industry involved in building and maintaining Bugatti slated the car. Another example was Bruce McCaws Blue Mercedes-Benz S-Type with its widespread use of silver and the multiple people that slated its particular configuration and yet and yet. Pictures and other evidence proved their owners were correct to restore them as they were.

    As with so many cases it is all about keeping an open mind as for the vast majority of collectors its about restoring the item to its former glory, whether that be as it left the factory, won its most important race or as last raced, maybe even as modified (per the Breadvan). All of these can be significant milestones and who are we to state what is or isn't right beyond our personal beliefs, I would opine that an owner can do whatever they wish. As noted rather sarcastically, many people on this forum also slate cars because they have seen a picture or used another reference and are so quick to judge, however I am sure that all of the top restoration houses would research restoration candidates if requested to do so. Now that's not to say that we shouldn't have the right to have an opinion but Ralph was always going to restore his cars to perfection and they were going to be painted so what does it matter if its Black.

    Yes it would be a shame to remove actual original paint but if they didn't have original paint before, then no harm was done and of course any future owner can take it back to an original livery without harm. For all the number of Ralph Laurens, there are plenty of Fred Simeones, Miles Colliers, Sam Manns, McCaws and Jon Shirleys who understand they are mere conservators for a future generation. If anyone wants to see evidence of this new understanding, just look at the simple comment that at a GTO reunion 20 years ago, every example was Rosso red whereas 2017s run had cars in Blues, Whites, Greens, Browns, Blacks and of course Red.
     
  19. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 Veteran
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    Mar 2, 2005
    9,602
    Send it to Maranello and have it fully restored and certified. It helps.

    Marcel Massini
     
  20. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 Veteran
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    9,602
    Yes, I did.
    The hairiest one was 0598 CM.

    Marcel Massini
     
  21. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 Veteran
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    Mar 2, 2005
    9,602
    YES.

    Marcel Massini
     
  22. Yoric

    Yoric Formula Junior
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    Jan 8, 2005
    268
    Full Name:
    Yoric
    HI All, I'm Yoric's wife and I want to re-create the menu so we can have our own version in the garage. Does anyone know what the featured dishes were that are listed on the printed menu cards? See photo of long table with wine glasses, red flowers and Gullwing in the background. Bon Appetit!
     
  23. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 18, 2010
    477

    Yes, fine, and as I mentioned... "....his car, and his money...." and also as mentioned it was not at all in original condition when he bought it, but it was much closer to being correct than it is now. I'm in the camp of not changing original color combinations on a significant car such as his Atlantic, and what is more bothersome are the physical detail modifications (he wanted) done to 'enhance' its appearance. And yes I see your point about restoring a car that was already not in its original colors, and making color changes. Sometimes or often this has been done for the better, and is fine, and sometimes it is not. But I think it is a bit of a moving target..... really depends on the specific car. Was, or is it a super rare and significant car such as Ralph's Atlantic, or is it a series production car where a good number were produced.... However I don't go along with making further detail and physical modifications to an extremely rare vehicle just to suit a temporary custodian's taste or whims. I'm not one who is quick to judge, I do my homework. Anyone who simply goes by one or a few pictures and basic Google info or even a book or two should not do so. We call them "armchair experts."

    If a major collector wants to modify their car(s) to suit their personal taste.....maybe instead, they should just commission Rick Dore or another current expert craftsman or shop to make exactly what they want. It would probably cost about the same as a full restoration, and not revise automotive history.

    I also fully understand about various colors & shades, and all the pitfalls owners and restorers face, and the often extensive research involved. I have dealt with this for many years, and it has often been difficult. Gather all the research you can, pick a point in time of exactly how the car existed and restore to that configuration, but don't make changes that were never real, and can never be supported from a historically accurate standpoint. Yes "an owner can do whatever they wish." But that doesn't necessarily make it right or the correct decision. Everyone makes mistakes, and some collectors do admit to this.

    That said, Ralph is certainly not the only one to physically modify a car. Other owners have also had their 'Pebble Beach Best of Show' winning and 'Best of Class' cars incorrectly 'modified,' some with noticeable body modifications that can not be supported by anything or anyone at any point in time. I've had the good fortune of spending private time with a number of significant vintage cars owned by some of the collectors you listed, and unfortunately all I can say is that at least a few of them have actually not conserved their cars accurately/historically correct, etc. Of those collectors mentioned, Simeone and Collier are the only two who I believe really fully qualify as collector-conservators who fully understand about accurate historical conservation for future generations. Show it correctly now, not to wait until many years from now when maybe that might happen.

    Please note that in the event I may have offended anyone, that was never my intent, not at all. I don't like to get involved in long debates (no point in beating a dead horse), so I'll probably have to bow out here.
     
  24. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

    May 14, 2017
    554
    I'm not offended at all. In fact, as a result of this thread, I have learned a lot, and thought a lot about my views on this topic. My sincere belief is, I love beautiful looking Ferrari's. I love originality, as long as it's in great condition. Otherwise, I'm all for restoration. I'm not really sure what people mean when they say "over restored", but if they mean a car looks tok nice, I don't agree. These amazing machines are not just race cars, they are beautiful pieces that should be cared for properly. What I don't agree with is altering the original look of a car. I don't really care what race a car was in or who drove it, or when he drove it; if the car is all beaten up, rusted, scraped, scaratched, has worn down, cracked and crumbling leather, restore the damn thing. Oh, and please omit all the livery. But, if, someone alters the original look or color of the car during that restoration, I'm not in favor of that. Ultimately, the owner can do as he pleases.


     
  25. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    May 8, 2008
    1,189
    Sydney, Australia
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    Chanh Lê Huy
    I read perfection left and right but there is no such thing as perfection, only just the taste of the day. The closest to perfection IMO is the car when it left the factory, with its faults maybe, but at least how the manufacturer intended it to be... To make it "better" than factory probably has more to do with ego than anything else because these owners were not the ones who imagined and created the cars in the 1st place.
     
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  26. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 Veteran
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    Nov 17, 2003
    7,432
    NYC. / E. Hampton
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    Michael

    A good friend of mine is vice pres of RL interior design. She was very much involved with the set up.
    Maybe she would impart such info.
    Pm me
     
  27. Admiral Goodwrench

    Admiral Goodwrench Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2005
    255
    Santa Fe, New Mexico
    Full Name:
    Robert Phillips
    I believe I did exactly that, and the 2008 PB Judges agreed with 100 points. Pls see


    Best regards,

    Robert
     

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