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RB and why he is off this year ...

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by PSk, Jun 1, 2004.

  1. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Okay for all you RB supporters who think that one day RB will take MS's place and be a WC for Ferrari ... keep reading.

    I just read a theory in a F1 magazine about RB's poor performances this year. The theory is that MS is no longer sharing as much car setup information with RB as he used to.

    Why is he no longer sharing?

    Quite simply many naive people last year were raving on about RB and how he has closed the gap and is ready to take over ... and watch out MS. I think I even thought he was doing well, etc.

    The fact is, quite understandably, MS has got pissed off with carrying the man and making RB look like a half decent racing driver ... thus RB it is time to do everything yourself.

    Now this is not team playing at all, but I for one do not blame MS for doing this because it is just become rediculous reading all this cr@p about how good RB is ... when quite clearly he is lucky to be a number 2 in a top F1 team.

    The only time I have ever seen RB drive like a F1 driver was at Austria where he was wrongly asked to move over.

    I am also sick and tired of this cr@p about RB helping MS to win F1 titles. MS quite simply can drive around the outside of RB on just about any corner, and has done it many, many times ... MS does not need RB, it is simply the teams way of not wasting their time trying to make RB in to a (constant) winner.

    Would you if you were running the team put as much effort in to RB?

    Ofcourse not you would have to be insane. You have the worlds fastest man in one car ... who gives a stuff who is in the other car. If the F1 rules allowed it Ferrari would just run one car.

    In closing what we are now seeing is RB's true level and this quite clearly shows (non-blinkered people ;)) that Ferrari would not be dominating as much with out a driver of MS's standard. Their car is good but not good enough for Rb to look anything but average.

    Pete
     
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  3. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    1] SCHUMACHER __ 10 10 10 10 10 -- 10 | 60
    2] R.BARRICHELLO__ 8 _5 _8 _3 _8 _6 _8 | 46
    Then there's everybody else...

    Hardly "average."
     
  4. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I disagree, with the hardly "average" comment.

    Lets look at the facts. The Ferrari this year has no competition ... thus RB does not have to anything more than "average" to get those results.

    I bet you could put Heidfield in RB's car and get the same results ...

    Pete
     
  5. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    This is BS. Both drivers are debriefed together and share car setup info. Like on friday when MS could not run in the 2nd Free Practise due to trouble with the car, RB gave him the info required to make the team decision on tyres. RB and MS share setup info.
     
  6. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

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    I would not call R.B. "average." He is a very consistent driver who rarely makes mistakes; partially due to the fact that he is very experienced, having been in F1 for over 10 years.
    While he cannot match the pace of Michael (noone can), he is still very quick, and can at 'least' use the Ferrari F1 car to keep ahead of the rest of the grid. That by definition makes him above average.
     
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  8. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I agree if most likely is BS ... but I am personally getting tired of RB getting rated so high. I just cannot understand it ...

    Okay pulling my head back in and putting fire suit on ;)

    Pete
     
  9. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    oh well, don't get me wrong. I meant to call the report BS, not you.
    RB is at about 8 on a scale of 1 to 10. MS being at 10. Drivers like Mika Hakkinen being 9. MS is in a league of his own and RB is getting paid to play second fiddle and support the team. It would be hard to win the constructors championship without a second consistent driver like RB. He is ok. The best man for the job. He knows his role and is playing his part.
     
  10. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

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    If you again use a 1 - 10 scale, where would you place Alonso, Trulli, Button, Sato, Raikkonen, Montoya?

    I think it's difficult to judge because the youngest drivers generally improve with more experience, and even good drivers can be made to look "hopeless" when the car is simply not there to back them up (*cough* McLaren-Mercedes *cough*).
     
  11. jtremlett

    jtremlett F1 Rookie

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    Personally, I think part of the reason Rubens hasn't looked so good this year is that Michael is just doing a stella job. I think he has been completely liberated by having won the 6th title and part of the consequence of that is that Rubens' head has dropped a bit. So then he's trying things like different tactics to make up some of the difference. On his day RB is as good as anyone: Silverstone last year, Hockenheim 2000. But his day is once a year. Michael's is every day.

    I don't believe MS has stopped sharing info. As I understand he relies quite heavily on RB for setup. Even more so this year when they are running limited laps to save the engines. Rubens also says he hasn't yet really had enough time in the car, testing etc., to get fully comfortable with it and that it doesn't suit his style so much as last year's car. One might say that MS never seems to have that problem!
     
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  13. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

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    Pete,

    I read the same atrticle in F1 Mag. Very interesting.

    I am not sure how much can be shared across both drivers. RB and MS have much different driving styles.

    It's is well known that MS, like both Fisi and Trulli, brakes much earlier than most other drivers and likes to rotate the car at turn in. In addition MS doesn't break in a straigthline (left foot brakes everywhere) and apexes very early and then jerks the car into an oversteer/rotation situation well before the apex which very few drivers can do without loosing substantial speed.

    RB on the other hand has a driving style more like his idol (Senna). He doesn't left foot brake and gets all his braking done in a straight line, hence a very late apex.

    For instance at Suzuka a few years ago (130 R turn) F1 Magazine overlayed the telemetry for MS/RB and MH/DC. Hakkinen and Schumacher both left foot braked 130 R while DC and RB didn't. It cost both of them 2 tenths of a second on one corner alone.

    I don't have the date to prove it, but I think if you look at the races where RB had to suddenly get into Schumcaher's backup car, with no time to set it up for him, you'd see he was much slower.

    RB isn't a bad driver, and at times when he was at Jordan (before his bad crash at Imola) he looked like world championship material, especially in the wet, but he isn't on the same page as MS. I think he could win the title if MS retired but he would need a perfect car.

    Regards,

    Jon P. Kofod
    www.flatoutracing.net
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    That is the problem ... there is no such thing as a perfect car all the time, if ever. I think RS is like this too, ie. give him a car that is working perfectly and he is really fast.

    The thing I admire about MS is that he is quick in a really non-perfect car and that is what makes a champion, because it is not just a one race series.

    I did read that article Jon about the left foot braking, and I really knock RB because he has never bothered to learn. Now if Senna was still alive and he was told that left foot braking was faster ... he would NEVER right foot brake again!, infact I am surprised that Senna did not left foot brake already (?).

    Pete

    ps: Admiral Thawn ... yes I assumed you meant the article ;)
     
  15. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

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    I have several pages of telemetry comparing MS with RB at Silverstone, Montreal and Suzuka. If I had my digital camera I'd take a photo of it for you guys, but I've lent it to my brother (who's in Europe for 2 weeks).

    Michael is a left foot braker, who brakes earlier than Rubens (but only around 5-10% braking to stabilise the car while flat out, prior to the turn) and then does his main braking to slow the car for the turn quite a bit later than Rubens. Michael almost never lifts off the power completely, even during heavy braking, keeping the throttle at around 15-18% (to limit longitudinal weight transfer which would cause understeer on entry), and during the turn plays with the brake pedal at the same time in order to preserve his car's stability.
    Contrasting this is Rubens who must do all of his braking first, enter the apex and then power out, playing with the throttle to keep the car balanced. Because Rubens uses his right foot only, he must jump from pedal to pedal.

    So while traction control ensures that both drivers have the same acceleration on exit, Michael gains time on the entry with his later and harder braking. Also the fact that he has his car set up for subtle oversteer allows him to turn in while still braking, as Jon mentioned. Rubens prefers a more balanced setup, not minding slight understeer, so long as it is gone by midway through the turn.

    The key to Michael's driving is that he tries to keep loss of momentum to a minimum. To achieve that the car's balance must be disturbed as little as possible, and that is why the play-off of throttle against brake (limiting longitudinal weight transfer) is so vital.
     
  16. Korr

    Korr F1 World Champ
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    Ross Brawn has stated more than once that MS often uses RB's set ups as RB is pretty good at setting up his car.

    RB uses LF braking at some tracks (he used it at Suzuka last year), but he still prefers RF braking. He changes style depending upon the track and corner.
     
  17. jmillard308

    jmillard308 F1 Veteran
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    And if you put MS in Button's car.............?

    Isn't the "what if" game a wonderful thing?

    :)
    John
     
  18. jmillard308

    jmillard308 F1 Veteran
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    And what's more, "what if" Michael wasn't there - RB would be leading the World Championship - a real "average" performance.:)

    JM
     
  19. vincent355

    vincent355 F1 Veteran
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    interesting thread!!!
     
  20. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    Pete, I have been around this forum for a while and I realized that you are always tired and sick about something. Relax, man, it´s just a car!!!
     
  21. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    That is not what all the magazines say ...

    Pete
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Hahaha, yes I guess you are right. But it would hardly be worth discussing if I just posted a topic saying nothing worth talking about now would it.

    I actually used to be a big fan of RB, but he has lost that sparkle. Also I am a huge (make that MASSIVE) fan of Jackie Stewart and after reading Stewarts comments on RB, I just don't think he has got it.

    You guys might continue to say the 'with out MS, RB would be leading the championship, etc.' but I say it just would not happen.

    After all you could have said the same about DC, ie. take away Hakinen. You and I both know that DC has not got it, and he would never make it to the end of the season on top.

    Thus I rate drivers on qualifying and car attitude, and while I appreciate that RB has a different strategy to MS, his qualifying performances are just average for such an awesome car. And I say again he is not making that car dance and simply putting it on the grid where the car ADVANTAGE would have put it ... just like the Minardi disadvantage puts them at the back.

    Now I hope I am wrong, and last year or the year before he was making all the right noices but this year he is dead quiet, and I think he has lost it completely.

    Letting JPM pass like a limp rag at Monaco might have made sense for the championship, but no racer worth a grain of salt bends over like that ... you atleast fight a bit for pride.

    Pete
     
  23. DGS

    DGS Three Time F1 World Champ
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    What may be interesting about this season is the fall-out of the MS/JPM conflicts.

    The press is going on about how Rubens isn't "aggressive" enough to be champion. Meanwhile, both Michael and JPM have enough aggressiveness for a platoon of commandos. ;)

    And what do we see in Europe? Sato doing a "kamakaze" move down the inside.

    Are the young drivers getting the message that they have to be borderline crazy to be winners?

    But Rubens is in second without having any grunting contests with other drivers. Where's "aggressive" JPM in the points, hmmm?

    "In order to finish first, you must first finish".
     
  24. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    I don't get the basic premise of this thread...

    Huh?? RB is doing AWESOME this year! If there was no MS, RB would have won 4 GP's, had 6 podiums, and 58 points!! That's only 2 less points than MS has right now. And that's pretty damn near dominating.

    And to do that well as a team's second driver is phenomenal. MS gets the ideal strategy; RB has to use a strategy that works around MS's strategy.

    So, this thread sounds to me more like Pete stirring $#it with his personal soapbox against RB's lack of LFB! And on that, the most interesting bits of this thread was the point that Senna was not a big LFB'er and that RB does LFB a little...

    Pete, you say that like LFB is some new concept. Racers long before Senna knew the benefits of LFB. So, I think your speculation there is all wet. He may indeed have switched to more LFB over time... but there is no evidence to support that. So, if you're going to rate RB as an "average driver" because of his lack of LFB, then you'll have to rate Senna there as well! :eek: Soooo, are you rethinking that soapbox you're on?? ;)


    Finally, the whole setup theory is a bit lame as MS has been known to give up his setup and switch to RB's. In fact, during the 2002 season that was discussed a number of times... RB helped MS a lot that season by simply coming up with better setups for the track and tires!


    So, in the end, the title of this thread is lame (RB is not "off" this year); the premise of this thread is lame (RB is not looking "average" at all); the proposed theory explaining the lame premise is lame (RB is good at setting up cars; possibly even close to MS capability in this one area); and the underlying soapbox you're on is lame (even the great Senna didn't LFB a lot).
     
  25. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm with Pete on this one. Rubens looked incredibly poor in Imola. Rubens to me looks like DC: A guy who can win once in a great while when everything comes together. A number 2 driver. But not of the MS, Kimi, Alonso class.
     
  26. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    Raikkonen would be a 8 because he has not won a World Championship yet
    Alonso, Trulli, Button would be a 7.5
    Sato would be a 6
    Montoya needless to say would be a a 2 or maybe a 3(a few lucky wins means nothing in my book)
     
  27. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Sato a 6 and JPM 3? C'mon! Sato hasn't won anything and JPM won Monaco!
     
  28. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    Yes he has also been the cause of several reckless racing incedents. Maybe a 2 would be more appropriate.
     

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