real cars are not as fast as computer sim cars

Haven't seen the Top Gear episode you're referring to, so I can't comment on that.

But a couple comments on the comparison between sims and real life cars:
- I don't know about GT4 and Forza, but I do know for a fact (and some FChatters have proven this already) that PGR2 had faster cars in the game than in reality and MS does that to give you more of a sensation of speed. So obviously comparing my lap times to Stuck's becomes a bit of a mood point (aside from the fact that he drove it with life and limb on the line while I sat at my desk).
- Having been a programmer for some tracks myself (e.g. Fiorano for GP3) I have learned a lot about the dirty little secrets of making a sim playable and realistic. It is very easy to give the player (vs the computer) an advantage in horse power, grip you name it. The goal is to come up with a track that represents reality as close as possible, but of course it'll be never the real thing.
- Having said all that it is still interesting to know how close some of these games come. Popular Mechanics had a terrific comparison of Forza with the real deal by using a pro driver and the latest edition of PC Gamer used some NASCAR drivers working on N2003. Furthermore we know of folks like Villeneuve who use these games to learn tracks.

In general I love this topic (comparison and see how close the sims come), which is also why I made the split screen video of the onboard camera vs the sim's perspective.

 

check out GTR for the PC.

Amazing game.

VERY accurate simulator IMO. (non-expert comment)

http://www.10tacle.com/gtr-game/

 

If you look closely its not a fair contest. He drove a blue NSX-R in the game and a normal Targa NSX in real life. NSX-R has a better chassis (being a coupe) and better suspension and has a blue printed engine.

 

Good point. Aside from the games running faster, there are always lots of differences in the cars and their setups.

The M3 GT I drove in GT4 is fully loaded. I threw everything in there that GT4 lets you. OTOH we don't know the configuration that Stuck had at his disposal. This being somewhat of a promo video I suspect his M3 was full blown as well, but who knows.

 

I assure you Jeremy Clarkson is a "normal driver" who has simply driven a lot of cars.

Racing drivers do use games/sims to learn circuits but only in the sense of how long the straights are in relation to one another and which way the corners go plus their relative speeds. As detail levels increase a driver can also create a sense of "having been there" which reduces the amount of new information you need to take in when you drive a new circuit for real.

Having said that all the "good" drivers I know generally learn a new circuit within 3 laps if using a familiar car (assuming the circuit is less than 4 miles long), Porsche curves at LeMans take a few goes to perfect and the Nordshcliefe takes a day of pounding round - although I know of one driver who "learned" that in 6 laps. By "learned" I mean hit "the pace" and maintained it.

As for the similarity between Games/Sims and reality, they are 2 completely different things. The most important thing about driving a car quickly on a circuit is feel, in a sim you get about 10% feel from force feedback and 90% from your eyes. In reality you get 10% feel from your eyes and 90% from your body (all of it - not just hands). Then there are the mental differences, believe me 150mph through Craner at Donington Park is very different in reality compared to a sim.

Until the simulation of the cars dynamics is 100% accurate (which is miles away) and we have accurately simulated g-forces (remember 4-5g in places which means you cant rely on gravity to give the feeling) plus the correct visuals then a sim is a sim and reality is something else.

In my opinion it wont be long (a few years) before what we see in sims matches reality but by the time the sims match the feel and dynamics "we" wont be driving for real anymore and then reality and virtuality will merge.

 

One thing Ive noticed about GT4 is that the game's cars often cannot accelerate at the same pace as actual cars. Has anyone else used the lap timer on the game to run 0-60 or 0-100 times on the cars you have. On several cars I have noticed times that were between .5 and 3 seconds off the actual times. But I have aslo seem some cars that are a little generous with their acceleration figures too.

Mark

 

I have always heard: to get good, you need SEAT TIME. For me, the best I can do right now is GTR. I don't try to make any comparisons to real life, I am just trying to learn some basic car dynamics in hopes that it will translate over in the future. And, its fun too!

As for Clarkson, like him or not, the man has a bunch of SEAT TIME, so I would imagine he is pretty good.

 

Blew up my sound card so I can't hear what Clarkson is saying but to me the video shows that he (and me, myself and I) is a desktop racer...

Don't forget that on the PS2 you have ample opportunity to explore the limits of the car... Nobody cares how often or how hard you hit the wall...

IRL that's a different story.

What was the set-up that Clarkson used?

I just got the trusty PS2 out and tried the '02 NSX-R at Laguna in arcade mode.

Standard settings, so no fiddling with power or weight, all driver aids on at standard settings but with soft sports tires.

Got as far as 1.40.312 after 6 laps.

Then switched off the driver aids completely and got as far as 1.38.553 after 4 laps... and I don't even like either Laguna Seca or the NSX nor am I any good at GT4, I just happen to like the game...

Clarkson did 1.41.148 but it could be that he used different tires....

What I did notice is that Clarkson used the standard Sony controller (as I do) but that he used the buttons instead of the analog sticks.

Would I manage 1.38.553 IRL? NO WAY!
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That's the part I don't understand. Why on earth does anybody even bother with that? I mean c'mon, you got a really got sim here that supports force feedback and Logitech has made one of the best wheels for it and you got a high paying TV show like Top Gear yet they fiddle with that nonsense controller?

I still don't have a XBox 360 and as long as a FFB controller isn't out I won't bother to get the console.

 

I also don't understand that.

Makes me wonder what time he would do in the real NSX with the throttle replaced by an on/off switch....

I did try the '00 "normal" NSX but got stuck in the low 1.44's but was also not really in the mood to try any further.

Based on my mediocre driving skill + the fact that Clarkson drove with buttons and consequently MUST have lost time due to the "digital", i.e. on/off, controls, my bet is that he indeed drove the NSX-R, NOT the NSX.

However, I did find that '00 NSX was able to corner a little bit faster but lacked the accelleration to (for example) manage 99 MPH right before the braking point at the Corkscrew which Clarkson managed and which is visible in the video. Again, all with my very mediocre driving skills.

 

I don't know whether I'd be any faster or slower with a controller instead of a FFB wheel, but that's not the point: It is so darn unrealistic that it is no fun to me.

BTW: With an analog to digital converter you can get better screen shots from GT4. Alternatively taking pics off a LCD projected image also improve things.

For the shot below I run the replay through the converter onto DV tape, then captured the DV tape via hotwire onto the PC. On the PC I merged the IRL video feed with the GT4 footage. I sped up the time of the replay to match the scenes, then finally rendered it all to a DVD along with some cool German rock music (had to be German for the Ring).
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The only method I REALLY understand: switch on radio for no matter what rock music, yank out the digital camera, hold still, push button, connect camera to pc, upload image....

Grinnnnnnnnnn

 

Hehe. If I ever get a chance to drive the Ring (or Seca for that matter) I'll tape that onto DV and then do the same split screen again. I reckon my IRL time will be about 3 times the game time... Just like my IRL time on the USGP F1 track was...

 

Considering the sickening frequency with which I bash my car into circuit walls or other cars in GPL, GT4 or other games, I am pretty sure I will not live for very long on a real circuit if I try to replicate what I do on a game.

Therefore, I will be really slow IRL. Another factor certainly slowing me down is my inability to do a good downshift under pressure without jerking the car.

I am sure I will lose my nerve taking a race car to its limit (i.e. my limit is lot less than the cars).

This is the main reason why I idolize top racing drivers - they demonstrate skills which I cannot replicate in a game let alone real life.

 

I just noticed... my Bentley Speed 8 has a frightning 13,418 km's on the clock...

Whoah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I saw the video already at NSXPrime.com. You may notice the rear spoiler is higher than normal and the wheels are color white. That is the NSX-R in the game he played.

 

Well, I ran Laguna in Forza Motorsports in a 2004 Acura NSX, not R, and achieved a time of 1:35:xxx. I rock, but that's besides the point, that's a lot faster than he did in reality.

 

Real cars will never be like the sims. There is a major component missing in the game, consequence.

When you crash in the game, you just start over! Its fun! Imagine if you crashed in the game and you had to turn off the system and never play again. A person might control the car a bit slower. Having spent time on a track and played various sims, i can honestly say messing up at 120+ mph has a very very clear message in reality. In the game i couldn't care less and enjoy seeing what i can do. Even if a car had the capability to match the simulators time, i don't think a person would push it there normally. Also, a game costs like $50 bucks. Crashing a Porsche or Ferrari into a guard rail is going to cost a lot more to fix! Having slower times in life is more than desirable to me!

 

You're quite right.

You're quite wrong.

 

perhaps to make it more realistic the ffb could be tied into an electric shock device zaping you in increasingly stronger jolts as the impact call for it and withdrawling a random amount of money from your bank account.

 

Well, first question should be: which game are we talking about?

It´s not the same GT4, Forza, etc... than GTR, GP Legends, or even Live for Speed.