Really nice Old Bugatti in Mews near My House

Discussion in 'Bugatti' started by William Abraham, Apr 29, 2012.

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  1. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
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    William Abraham
    #1 William Abraham, Apr 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  2. Il Vecchio

    Il Vecchio F1 Rookie

    Dec 27, 2007
    2,505
    Near Pasadena, CA
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    Peter B.
    Interesting car. Late-ish T35 with correspondingly wider radiator and the larger brake drume, IMO.

    I'd drive the heck out of it...

    Nice 206 SP and 3-Litre Bently in the backround...
     
  3. 4REphotographer

    4REphotographer F1 Veteran

    Oct 22, 2006
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    Chris
    That is awesome, there is something just incredible about well used cars.
     
  4. dbw

    dbw Formula Junior

    Apr 3, 2005
    890
    palo alto ca
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    dave
    you gotta be careful these days....tim dutton can turn one of these out pretty easily with all new parts...or take an older restoration , make it new mechanically, and patina the bejesus out of it.... now this car, with double clipped front springs should be a 35b..however it has non-original hartford front shockers and a non-factory tail section....someone that has access to reg numbers should know.
     
  5. jbann

    jbann Rookie

    Aug 11, 2007
    37
    Northeast Penn.
    Right outside of Fiskens. A proper dealer for such a car, should it belong to them. This is the patina one can only wish for.
     
  6. hhh

    hhh Karting

    Aug 19, 2004
    97
    Netherlands
    This is a very real car, owner is from Belgium but keeps the car in London.
     
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  8. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    Which I just cannot understand.

    This car (I believe) was written about in one of the English classic car magazines and had a complete mechanical restoration ... I just don't understand why not just paint it, and then keep using it.

    The bodywork is simply unmaintained ... weird. And it is NOT original because some of those stone chips or paint flakes happened recently ...
    Pete
     
  9. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    1,824
    This is an inquiry about that "lost Bugatti," i.e. 47502, a 57S once belonging to Earl Howe. Someone from English Bugatti Club said "it wasn't lost--we knew where it was all the time!" Well, anyhow what I want to know is how the car came to light? Was the garage door open and a passerby saw it or did someone have an old bugatti club magazine that mentioned the car and decided to go there and see if it was still there? What was it sold for? Or did the family go from from their garage to Bonhams?
    Here's some quotes from a story on it from BBC run back in 2009.
    An aside on the differance between Yanks and Brits is I think Yanks would have gotten steamed that the car was hidden so long and gone there and unearthed it. You can get old waiting...

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (the BBC story)Car worth £3m is found in garage

    The 1937 Bugatti gathered dust in a garage for 47 years. Pic Bonhams
    A classic Bugatti car, which gathered dust in a Tyneside garage for almost 50 years, may fetch up to £3m ($4.35m) when it goes under the hammer.

    Relatives of reclusive Newcastle doctor Harold Carr found the 1937 Type 57S Atalante in a garage after he died.

    Now the classic car, thought to be one of just 17 built, is to be sold by Bonhams in Paris next month.

    It was originally owned by Earl Howe - first president of the British Racing Drivers' Club.
    Dr Carr, a former army surgeon, left the contents of a lock-up garage to his family when he died in 2007.

    As well as the Bugatti, his nephew also discovered a classic Aston Martin, and a Jaguar E-type in the lock-up.

    The nephew, an engineer from Newcastle, said: "We just can't believe it.

    "Of course we're delighted and we're going to make sure the money is shared out among the family. It's a wonderful thing to leave."

    Only 17 Bugatti Type 57S Atalantes were built. Earl Howe took delivery of the sporty two-seat Atalante after it was completed in 1937 and kept the car for eight years.

    After Earl Howe sold it, it changed hands a couple of times before Dr Carr bought the car in 1955 from Lord Ridley, a member of the Northumberland gentry.

    He drove the car for the first few years, but in 1960 it was parked in his garage where it remained until his death.

    James Knight, international head of Bonhams' motoring department, said: "I have known of this Bugatti for a number of years and, like a select group of others, hadn't dared divulge its whereabouts to anyone.


    HAVE YOUR SAY
    I inherited a 100 year old ring that has been in my family for generations. Its monetary value is probably quite low, but its the only family heirloom I have
    N Moose, Stratford upon Avon, United Kingdom
    Send us your comments"It is absolutely one of the last great barn discoveries.

    "The Atalante is incredibly original and, although she requires restoration, it is 'restoration' in the true sense of the word.

    "It offers a truly rewarding project to the new owner - who will join a select list of distinguished owners - to play such an integral part in bringing this wonderful motor car back to life."

    The car has a remarkably low mileage with an odometer reading of just 26,284.

    The Bugatti 57S is a highly coveted car by collectors, with at least four thought to belong to the Musee Nationale de L'Automobile in Mulhouse, France.

    Others remain in the hands of private collectors.
     
  10. Alan Cox

    Alan Cox Rookie

    May 7, 2012
    39
    Cheshire, England
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    Alan Cox
    #9 Alan Cox, Apr 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Indeed, this is the type 35C owned, as hhh points out, by Belgian racer and Aston Martin collector Hubert Fabri. It is chassis no. 4871 and was, at one time, raced by Jannine Jennky, one-time mistress of Alberto Divo. it has been much-raced by Hubert since he has owned it, so it will have picked up further chips and scratches along the way.
    There is a good story of its history here, written by Mick Walsh of Classic and Sportscar magazine the Bugatti revue, 7-3, T35

    Hubert also owns the ex-King Leopold Type 59 (photo below) which he races and, again, which has not been over-restored. Many Europeans prefer their cars to retain some historic patina and shy away from the Pebble Beach look of chrome and polish.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    1,824
    I looked up another old article today and it said the nephew found the car under some stuff in the garage after Dr. Carr died. Is this the understanding by British Bugatti fans of how it was found? I thought maybe some passerby saw it and spread the word.


    Wikipedia says
    "it was sold at auction by Bonhams on 7 February 2009. Set at a reserve price of £3 million, due to its low mileage and original condition, it was speculated that it could become the most expensive car ever sold at auction, at around £6 million.[4] These hopes were dashed, however, as it reached £2,989,495 (US$4,408,575)."

    PS One British forumite wrote "it was never lost, we knew where it was" but I still say "lost to the world" when it's buried in a garage for nearly half a century
     
  12. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
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    I cannot help but say again that I am not impressed by this scruffy "patina" thing.
     
  13. Red Head Seeker

    Red Head Seeker Formula 3
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    Apr 27, 2009
    2,212
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    Mark
    Serious "Toe in" in the front wheels chamber on post/photo # 9....Mark
     
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  15. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
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    Not that it matters much, but that is not toe-in.

    The word is camber.
     
  16. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Me three ...

    Pete
     
  17. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2003
    8,109
    Boulder, CO
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    Scott
    I agree, fantastic car.
     
  18. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    #16 PSk, Jun 2, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
    Yes it is a fantastic car, but that car does not look like that because it is "well" used, but because of bodywork neglect. Heck it's not even been washed. If you washed and polished that car it would look considerably better and still have all that patina to give you patina guys a hard on. My 1750GTV Alfa had paint work like that when I purchased it, and this was because for 4 years (I think) it lived under a tree with a tarp over it in somebodies back yard. A wash made a world of difference ...

    I just don't get it. Does his house also suffer from this neglect, I wonder?

    Do you guys never wash your modern cars so they will look like that in the future?
    Pete
     
  19. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Moderator
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    Oct 1, 2008
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    What's the thinking behind the huge positive camber on the front wheels? It's present in both cars shown here, so I assume it was a model design feature rather than a set-up chosen post-production by two owners. I know negative camber can increase grip when cornering, but I'm struggling to think of a benefit to having positive camber like that.

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  20. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Positive camber was the thinking back then because as you put weight in the car the solid axles bend/flex and the wheels move towards a more vertical position. If they had used negative camber back then as the solid axles bend it would increase the negative camber and of course the weak(er) wire wheels would over stress and fail.

    It was nothing to do with cornering, but simply load carrying ability. I assume horse drawn carts were also set up with some positive camber for the same reason.
    Pete
     
  21. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
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    William Abraham
    #19 William Abraham, Jun 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  22. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    You are not sure if that is a replica?
     
  23. dbw

    dbw Formula Junior

    Apr 3, 2005
    890
    palo alto ca
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    dave
    yup..those dumb irons are pretty dumb.....
     
  24. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    Bugattis of this period, actually until the original company folded (I think), never had independent suspension front or rear.
    Pete
     
  25. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Moderator
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    Oct 1, 2008
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    Thanks Pete. :)

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  26. dbw

    dbw Formula Junior

    Apr 3, 2005
    890
    palo alto ca
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    dave
    i was always lead to believe that old cars were designed with "center point steering"..that is where the extended centerline of the kingpin intersected with the center of the tire contact patch....thus allowing easier pre-power steering control....ford did this on the model t as it was easy to machine the axle holes for the kingpins parallel and the "angle" was forged in the spindle...[ t's came off the assembly line with positive camber on the front...however due to the road conditions and the softness of the front axle forging things bent quickly to a neutral or even negative]......bugs do the same as the machining was easy..[ask me how i know this]...some early cars had right angles at the stubaxle and the the kingpin holes in the axle were machined with a negative camber to allow the center point conversion of the pivot and the tire at the ground..[.somehow an austin 7 comes to mind]....horse drawn wagon wheels were designed an a slight conical shape for strength...combined with a slight downward angle of the fixed stub axle the spokes on the lower part of the wheel were always vertical; thus insuring a direct compression load on the spoke....thus the whole wheel seemed to have a positive camber....
     
  27. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    817
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #25 William Abraham, Jun 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

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