Rebuilding the 308 electronic ignition (SM805A distributor, Marelli AEI200 Ignition) | FerrariChat

Rebuilding the 308 electronic ignition (SM805A distributor, Marelli AEI200 Ignition)

Discussion in '308/328' started by alhbln, Jan 24, 2014.

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  1. alhbln

    alhbln Formula 3
    Consultant Owner

    Mar 4, 2008
    1,749
    Berlin, Germany
    Full Name:
    Adrian
    Late model 308 GT4s and 308 GTB/GTS cars have a factory installed electronic ignition based on a single Marelli SM805A distributor with two VR sensors, and two Marelli AEI200 transistor ignitions (one for each bank).
    This setup works quite well when in good shape and delivers a strong spark due to the 6 Ampere coil current (which is 50% more than a points, Ignitor I or Crane XR700 setup, and similar in output to an Ignitor II or Crane XR3000 setup), so it makes good sense to rebuild it to factory condition.

    When repairing/restoring an ignition setup, make sure you clean all contacts and terminals with a good industrial grade contact cleaner which removes the oxidation (WD40 is not a contact cleaner even it is sometimes advertised as one).

    A quick test can be done using a current clamp and measuring the positive (yellow wire) feed going to each coil. At idle you should see around 4-6 Amperes of current (depending on the type of current clamp, e.g. RMS type or standard). If the current is below 4 Ampere for both coils, then there is most probably a problem with the voltage supply (check terminals, wires, ground and fuses). if the current is different between the two coils, then the sensor gap is most probably not set correctly or one of the coils is defective.

    • VR Sensors
    The VR Sensors tend to fail due to a defect of the coil windings or a cable defect. A sensor does not necessarily need to fail completely, it can also partially fail (as example only when warming up). Fortunately, replacement sensors are still easily available, as example from Superformance.

    A simple test is to measure the resistance of the VR meter using a multimeter. With a healthy VR sensor you should see a resistance between 700-770Ω.

    What is often done wrong is the installation of the replacement VR sensors itself. The gap between the VR sensor and the reluctor wheel needs to be set at 0.25-0.4mm, also it is quite important that the gap is identical for both sensors as it controls the dwell (coil charge) timing.

    A larger gap leads to a shorter dwell, which in turn lowers the coils output, leading to a weaker spark with a shorter duration.

    A simple test with the distributor removed from the engine is to slowly turn the distributor axle by hand. If the gap is set correctly, you should feel a tiny bit of resistance (due to the magnetic field) each time a tooth of the reluctor wheel passes a VR sensor (e.g. eight times for a 360º turn of the axle). If you don't feel any resistance when turning the axle, then the gap distance is too large, leading to a lower coil current and weak spark output.

    The easiest way to check and set the gap is by installing the distributor on a distributor testing machine and connecting the output of the two VR sensors to an oscilloscope (black=ground, blue=positive). At 800 RPM you should get an amplitude of at least 8-12 Volts if the gap is set correctly. Also both outputs should have the same amplitude +-2 Volts.

    • Ignition Modules (Amplifiers)
    The factory Marelli BKL 1A (GM 468 in earlier units) ignition module is similar to a standard four terminal HEI module, but not all HEI modules can be used as a replacement for the BKL 1A. Most if not all of the HEI modules on the market are specified for an eight cylinder engine, the HEI modules available nowadays as OEM replacement typically start to accept triggers around 600 RPM at eight cylinders, and the ignition output current is often set at 5A or below.

    In the 308 setup, each ignition module handles a single bank, e.g. four cylinders, so the idle RPM is just around 400 RPM (800/2). Using an eight cylinder HEI module in this setup can lead to ignition dropouts and bank failures at idle, so it is important to choose a replacement module which is compatible with the lower RPMs and is able to deliver 6A coil current to the ignition coil. Unfortunately, even dedicated shops which specialize in Ferrari replacement parts often sell standard HEI modules as replacement for the 308 ignition.

    The following modules have been fully tested, work with a four cylinder (single bank) setup and are able to deliver 6 Ampere as in the factory setup (sorted in order of preference):

    Hella 5DA 006 623-05
    Beru ZM005
    Pertronix D2000


    • Ignition Coils
    The original Marelli BAE 207A coil installed in the AEI200 ignition is a high power transistor ignition coil with a primary resistance of 0.8Ω and a secondary resistance of 9KΩ.
    A defective coil can either stop working at once (cold, or only when heating up in the engine compartment), but can also develop defects in the secondary winding, leading to a lower spark output.

    Using a standard points coil such as the Marelli BK2A is not a good idea as the internal resistance limits the coil current to around 3.5-4 Ampere, which leads to a weak and short spark. The ideal replacement is a transistor ignition coil with similar parameters as the original BAE 207A coil

    The following coils have been tested and are similar to the factory BAE 207A coil (sorted in order of preference):

    Bosch 0 221 122 334
    Beru ZS 120
    Pertronix 40011


    Rebuilding an SM805/AEI200 based ignition with the parts mentioned above and setting the VR gap correctly will restore your ignition setup to factory specifications.

    Good luck,
    Adrian
     
    Wayne Forza likes this.
  2. nerodino

    nerodino Formula 3
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    May 19, 2005
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    Adrian, Yes all sage advice for others now that you have sorted both Andy's and my own cars out!
    I had bought what i thought to be the 'correct' replacement parts from my VERY well known UK supplier and then spent weeks messing around with everything else thinking that as i had replaced the HEI modules coils and sensors then something else was causing the awful misfiring!
    Finally sending all out to you after you very kindly offered to have a look at it, I now have a car that runs smoothly.
    I have as yet to make an appearance at said suppliers to present a box full of unwanted/unusable! parts.
    I don't think that anyone else has ever offered much in the way of technical advise as regards this set up until this post.
    I am intrigued as to how many 308's out there utilise this system?
    Once again Adrian i thank you greatly for your knowledge and dedication to those of us mere mortals out here with limited know how on this subject.
    Regards
    Graham
     
    Wayne Forza likes this.
  3. magaoidh

    magaoidh Karting

    May 12, 2009
    220
    Hi Adrian,great article which begs a question or two.
    Hella and Beru are hard to find out here in OZ so I already have the Pertronix coils with Accel modules should I switch to the D2000 modules?
    I have checked the resistance of the VR sensors in situ and they read 803 and 804 ohms!
    The new ones which I havent installed read between 700 and 720 ohms.
    Can I install the sensors by just removing the dizzy cap???
    Can you tell me which coil controls which bank,I believe the front coil controls the front bank i.e cylinders 5-8 by the B coil,1-4 by the A coil.
    Thanks, Geoff
     
  4. Andy 308GTB

    Andy 308GTB F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jun 2, 2004
    2,627
    Essex, UK
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    Andy M
    Geoff you can work this out by looking at your distributor.
    The rotor arm is staggered with one arm higher than the other, each arm drives 4 contacts.

    One set of contacts will do bank 1-4, the other contacts will do 5-8.
    5 minutes with a voltmeter testing between the various contacts should answer your question.

    No, you will need to dismantle the distributor.


    +1
     
  5. alhbln

    alhbln Formula 3
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    Mar 4, 2008
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    Adrian
    Every non US carb 308 GT4/GTS/GTB made from 1978 on would have this setup. Not sure about the 1978-1980 308 US carb models, chances are they kept the points based ignition until the introduction of the GTBi/GTSi cars.

    Accell 35361 HEI modules should be fine, the one i tested worked nicely at lower RPMS, it had a bit less output but should do nicely.

    Around 800 ohms is still acceptable. You might want to check the terminals in the plastic connectors for corrosion/dirt and clean them if required.

    As Andy already posted, unfortunately you have to disassemble the distributor to exchange the sensors. Remove the six screws at the bottom and the three screws at the top, then gently hit the top end of the axle (where the rotor was mounted) with a rubber (!) hammer until the axle with the advance mechanism pops out from the bottom, after that the top plate with the VR sensors can easily be removed.
    Mark the position of the bottom plate (six screws) against the body with a Sharpie to be able to reinstall it in the exact same position.

    I recommend to exchange the factory installed slotted-head screws against stainless steel crosshead screws, as the slotted-head screws can easily get damaged and then are difficult to remove.

    Exactly, each AEI200 ignition unit runs the bank next to it.
     
  6. magaoidh

    magaoidh Karting

    May 12, 2009
    220
    Thanks Adrian I will have a go at renewing the sensors.
    Those slotted head screws look somewhat mangled.
    Definitely have to be replaced,stainless steel would be best I think,any further points to look out for?
    Geoff
     
  7. nerodino

    nerodino Formula 3
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    May 19, 2005
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    Graham
    Yes, the sensors are 'handed' ie left and right. Also make sure you don't trap the single core wires coming out of the sensors under the distributor plate. Further to that make sure they sit 'square' to the eccentric lobes of the reluctor cam.
     
  8. magaoidh

    magaoidh Karting

    May 12, 2009
    220
    Further today,I removed the dizzy,marking everything,
    When rotating the spindle by hand I could feel clunk and then zilch.
    I renewed the sensors and adjusted the gap with a feeler gauge set to .3mm.
    After reassembly rotation gave me the resistance times 8.
    Thanks for your great input,funny how not too many owners have this e.ignition!
     
  9. nerodino

    nerodino Formula 3
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    May 19, 2005
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    Great, We would love to know when she is running again as to how smooth she is?
     
  10. magaoidh

    magaoidh Karting

    May 12, 2009
    220
    will do,btw to advance the ignition which way do I rotate the dizzy,there is a mark on the casing which was already there for a good performance setting,I figure,but this isnt an Alfa lol!
     
  11. alhbln

    alhbln Formula 3
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    Mar 4, 2008
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    Rotate the distributor body CCW to advance the timing
     
  12. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
    London
    This type of sensor cant be checked by measuring the resistance other than if its open circuit it is of course faulty.
    They contain many turns of fine wire and one shorted turn is enough to render the sensor low or no output. This would not show up on a resistance test owing to all the other hundreds or thousands of turns of wire which are not shorted.
    Same goes for crank sensors.
     
  13. Andy 308GTB

    Andy 308GTB F1 Rookie
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    Jun 2, 2004
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    I don't think these distributors have been talked about much because they have been very reliable. Mine, for instance, hadn't been touched in 30 years & I'm hoping that I won't need to go near it for another 30 years. But it does give the impression that they are quite rare but I don't think that is the case.

    Adrian's documentation on the subject will be the bible on these distributors - these threads are worth printing out and keeping with the service manuals.
     
  14. antoninosavoca

    antoninosavoca Formula Junior

    Aug 9, 2011
    283
    Montesilvano Italy
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    antonino savoca
    Alhbin this post is superb! Congratulation , i am sorry as i don't understand anything of electronics, it would be fantastic if you posted pictures of all works.
    Best regards and thank you v. m.
     
  15. alhbln

    alhbln Formula 3
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    Mar 4, 2008
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    The electrical defects a VR sensor can have are either a break of one of the windings (no output anymore and infinite resistance) or a partial failure of the insulation varnish due to age and vibrations (lower resistance). Both defects can be identified by measuring the resistance using a standard multimeter. If the sensors resistance is within the specs, e.g. 700Ω-770Ω for the type discussed here, then it will output a valid signal. A higher resistance than normal usually indicates corroded connectors.

    Partial shortened wire turns due to a insulation varnish failure lead to a lower resistance and a lower amplitude, but the sensor will still work as the ignition module triggers on the signal crossing zero and not on the amplitude, so even partially damaged sensors will still work.
    A sensor with a partial insulation varnish failure (e.g. lower resistance than normal) will deliver a signal similar to a too large reluctor/sensor gap.

    Best,
    Adrian
     
  16. alhbln

    alhbln Formula 3
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    #16 alhbln, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sure, here are some photos:

    1. Magneti Marelli SM805A Distributor, shown from the engine mount side
    2. SM805A inside view, showing the two VR sensors (black) mounted to the top plate
    3. Marelli AEI200 Ignition (left side), Coils: Bosch, Beru, Pertronix / Ignition Modules: Hella, Beru, Pertronix
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  17. magaoidh

    magaoidh Karting

    May 12, 2009
    220
    Definitely should be a sticky,great work Adrian,for those who aren't aware Adrian put me on the right track a couple of years back.
    At that time there was virtually nothing on this type of e.ignition!
    Hats off!
     
  18. magaoidh

    magaoidh Karting

    May 12, 2009
    220
    Btw Adrian can you advise me how to test relays,I suspect that some of mine have reached their use by date?
    Regards
     
  19. antoninosavoca

    antoninosavoca Formula Junior

    Aug 9, 2011
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    antonino savoca
    Thank you very much Adrian ,for posting beautiful pictures,this post is fantastic!
     
  20. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
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    John!
    Really nice work as always.
     
  21. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2007
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    Cape Town South Afri
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    Dave
    Great thread , thank you
     
  22. alhbln

    alhbln Formula 3
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    Mar 4, 2008
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    Sure, but please create a new thread so others can participate too :)

    Best,
    Adrian
     
  23. magaoidh

    magaoidh Karting

    May 12, 2009
    220
    Now another question re the AE1200 system,dwell angle does it really only apply to a points system ?
    My car reads around 1000 rpm and 16 deg.of dwell?
    Btw Nerodino the car has improved performance since renewing the sensors,awaiting a pair of Flamethrower modules!
     
  24. alhbln

    alhbln Formula 3
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    Mar 4, 2008
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    The dwell angle is more relevant for setting up the points gap, it shows how long in "distributor shaft degrees" the points are closed to charge the coil.

    With the AEI200 the dwell angle is controlled by the distance of the VR sensor to the reluctor wheel. A higher distance gives a lower dwell angle measurement.

    16º sounds a bit low, for an four cylinder engine (the SM805A setup behaves like two independent four cylinder engines with an AEI200 engine for each bank) you would usually see a dwell angle of around 54º. The effect of the lower dwell angle would be a much shorter spark duration.

    Any chance the sensor/reluctor wheel gap is too large? Did you notice any "friction" due to the magnetic field when spinning the distributor axle by hand?
     
    tomberlin likes this.
  25. magaoidh

    magaoidh Karting

    May 12, 2009
    220
    Adrian I was happy with setting of .3mm which is around your midway mark for setting the gap.
    There are two bearings on the dizzy axle shaft,I had some doubt about one of them,but when checking the gap on removing the dizzyI could feel contact between the señsor and the reluctor wheel.The shaft spun freely but with some noise,
    That sure is a big difference 54 deg. to at best 18 deg.
     

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