RedLine MTL - BIG improvement!!!!

Discussion in '308/328' started by mike996, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. mike996

    mike996 F1 Rookie
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    As I mentioned in a different thread, after adjusting my alternator tension this morning, I filled the drained gearbox/differential with Redline MTL, replacing the Motul that had been in there. I went out and drove about 20 miles doing shifts varying from very leisurely on local streets to WOT shifts as quickly as I could. It was like a totally different transmission - all the balkiness that I thought was "normal" was gone. I'm very impressed. It's not a "just noticeable" difference, it's pretty darned dramatic.

    I've had heard folks talk of "groaning" in low speed turns with straight MTL but there's no groaning/chatter at all under any conditions and I tried hard to find those conditions.

    To be fair, I don't recall which type of Motul was in there (Synthetic or not, or the specific weight). I just know it was the type that the shop in Baltimore where I first had it changed used/recommended back in '08. So I bought the same thing when I changed it myself the one previous time I did it 3 or so years ago. Maybe synthetic Motul of the same weight as the MTL would do as well but I'm a confirmed Redline MTL user now! To be honest, I've never been much of a believer in differeOnly issue is that none of the parts stores around carry it, even though their internet sites CLAIM the stores have it. So I ordered it on the internet last week
     
  2. thorn

    thorn Formula Junior
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    I did a fluid drain this winter, removing whatever gear oil was in there and replacing with MTL. I was frankly amazed at the improvement in shifting. It's definitely not a myth.
     
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  3. mike996

    mike996 F1 Rookie
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    Tried to edit my post to fix the incomplete sentence but was past the deadline. I wanted to say, "I have never been much of a believer that different gear oils of the same type/weight worked better than others but it appears I was wrong about that! (Again, since I can't recall the specifics about the Motul, my "test" is not really objective).
     
  4. dave80gtsi

    dave80gtsi Formula 3
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    Getting ready to do this same job myself.

    How many quarts did you use?

    Thanks - DM
     
  5. thorn

    thorn Formula Junior
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    Approx 4.5-5 qts.
     
  6. Milkshaker0007

    Milkshaker0007 Karting

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    I also put redline into my gear box last year, big difference also
     
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  8. AN-M

    AN-M Formula Junior

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    But does the Redline MTL have any frictional additives? The trans shares the oil with the diff...Lim slip diff.

    I use Castrol Syntrax and have no issues.
     
  9. mike996

    mike996 F1 Rookie
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    I don't believe MTL has any frictional additives. I have plenty of experience with limited slip differentials and the chattering/noises that occur when turning if the incorrect oil is used. My '89 US 328 using MTL has no chattering, moaning, groaning, or any symptom at all of incompatibility. OF course, whether it would be any better than Castrol Syntrax or any other popular brands, I have no idea since the only oil I have ever used prior to the MTL was Motul. The difference between the Motul that was in there and the MTL was like night and day...a very DARK night compared to a very BRIGHT day.

    So frankly, I am now convinced of the validity of what someone posted a while back when he commented that RifleDriver uses/recommends MTL in these cars (3x8s)... "so why are we having this discussion?" :)
     
  10. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    Mike this is perfect timing as I’m due for a gear oil change. I have been using the Redline 75/90 NS for years with good results. I’ve been wanting to switch to the MTL but didn’t know what to expect but after reading your post, I’m now convince to switch. I’m looking forward to the dramatic difference when I switch to MTL , thank you Mike.
     
  11. mike996

    mike996 F1 Rookie
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    In reading lots of posts prior to deciding on the MTL, I had originally put the NS in my "basket" on Amazon (couldn't find Redline at local parts stores) though I did not order at that point. It was when I found RifleD's post recommending MTL and pointing out the fact that there are no hypoid gears (unlike a standard differential) in these cars that I changed my basket and ordered the MTL.

    I just checked the service records and found that Motul in the gearbox was 75W90 synthetic. I was thinking that maybe it was not synthetic and that was why there was such a big difference between the Motul and MTL but obviously it was more than that. The MTL is GL4 while the Motul is GL4/5. Maybe that's the difference; I have no idea. NS is GL5 so I'll be interested to hear your results after your switch.
     
  12. SeattleM5

    SeattleM5 Formula Junior
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    I had the same positive experience when I switched to MTL in my 328 three years ago although I don't think the improvement was as dramatic as Mike's (I had been running Redline 75W90 NS before). The only thing that I didn't like with the MTL was an increased chatter from the transfer case when the car was at temp. At first I wasn't entirely sure that it was the fluid causing the issue and I was preparing to pull the transfer case cover to inspect the gears but before I did I decided to switch back to Redline 75W90 NS after which the chatter was gone. For those switching to MTL I'm curious if you end up experiencing increase noise from the transfer gears.
     
  13. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

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    +1,,
    I had been running with Redline NS for many years up until last year and always heard a groaning/chattering when turning slow either left or right,U-Turns is where I would hear it most then after reading up on one of Rifledriver's post about using MTL l tried it and the noise disappeared instantly..
     
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  15. mike996

    mike996 F1 Rookie
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    Funny - so we have one post that NS eliminated the chatter that MTL exhibited and one post that MTL eliminated the chatter that NS exhibited! So, the conclusion seems to be that a 3x8 will chatter with MTL... or not; or it will chatter with NS...or not. :) As I said, I did everything I could to make my 328 chatter/groan/moan/whatever in slow speed tight turns but it didn't. If it had, I was prepared to add some additive or even change to a different oil.

    I don't know anything about the Ferrari differential so I don't know if there are any internal "adjustments" (changing shims, adding or subtracting clutch plates, changing preload spring, different clutch friction material, or actual adjustments) that might affect the differential clutch lockup and thus, make it more or less prone to chattering with various oils. US LSDs that I am familiar with can be "adjusted" in that way which can make them more or less tolerant of oil as far as chattering.

    It seems to me to be possible, even if there are no "adjustments," that factory assembly or machining variation might create a difference between cars coming of the assembly line. For example, machining tolerances might make for higher clutch spring pressure on one car than on another. OR, maybe at some point the friction material of the clutch was changed, either by intent or random changes by the supplier. Anything like that might be the reason some cars chatter with a certain oil and others don't. But this it totally just speculation on my part; I have never worked on or even seen a 3x8 differential opened up.
     
  16. SeattleM5

    SeattleM5 Formula Junior
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    Sorry, I should have been more clear in my post above. The 'chatter' that I was referring to was not the commonly described groan/moan experienced on slow speed tight turns with some types of gear box oil, rather, the new sound that I experienced when I switched to MTL was a chatter/subtle rattling sound from the transfer case gears once the engine/gear box was up to full operating temp. Note that the sound was only appreciated at idle.
     
  17. Brian A

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    To provide my anecdotal experience, I used Redline 75W90 NS GL-5 the first time I changed the gear oil and then Redline MTL for the next 3 changes (I've been changing annually). I experienced some funk with the NS which MTL greatly reduced. However, I still get a slight bit of "chatter" with the MTL under hard acceleration from a tight low speed corner.
     
  18. thorn

    thorn Formula Junior
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    Worth noting - there are at least 3 different gearings for the QV: US, Euro, and Swiss. So behaviors observed at a particular shift points/speeds may be different.

    Don't know if that applies to other 3x8 variants, but thought I'd mention it.
     
  19. dinonz308

    dinonz308 Karting
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    Do you know what the different ratios are? I've searched but can't find much - am curious now.
     
  20. AN-M

    AN-M Formula Junior

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    Common for both these two Redline products are that they have no friction modifiers. Why not try a brand and type designed for the purpose? :)

    I'm not american so for me Redline is an uncommon brand, but they don't seem to have any products really 100% suitable for the 3x8 transaxel. I've read about the 2. gear problem and diff chattering, but never experienced any of them. Maybe I'm just lucky? :D
     
  21. mike996

    mike996 F1 Rookie
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    Well, Motul is European and, according to Motul, their 75W90 synthetic is "correct" for the 328 but in mine, the Redline MTL was a dramatic improvement over the Motul. If there is some difference between the Euro car differential clutch design/material and the US differential, maybe that would explain it. Otherwise, I'd have to say that the Redline MTL has proven in my 328 to be "MORE correct" for the application. ;)

    Re 2nd gear - when I bought my car, 2nd gear was nearly impossible to select when cold. I don't know what kind of gear oil was in it at the time. After changing to the Motul 75W90 synthetic, I could select 2nd when cold but it was a bit balky. With the MTL it goes into 2nd with no difficulty. No, it's not as smooth as it is warmed up but it's not a problem at all to shift into 2nd when cold. Frankly my 1999 Porsche 911 was nearly impossible to get into 2nd when cold so it's not as if Ferrari had a lock on that technology! :)
     
  22. AN-M

    AN-M Formula Junior

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    My car is a US version. As I said, never had any problems with the trans. Smooth both cold and warm. I don't believe that Castrol Syntrax ls 75w140 is better or worse than other similar products, but it works and costs under half the price of Redline products here. :)

    No reason to doubt yours (and others) experience, but by reading the description of the different Redline gear oils it seems that none of them really is appropriate for 3x8?

    Anyway, doesn't matter. MTL works for you.:)
     
  23. JCR

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  24. mike996

    mike996 F1 Rookie
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    "Redline is a group V basestock polyol ester. Most automotive synthetics are group IV poly alpha olefins aka PAOs."

    YEAH, that's just what I was thinking! ;)









    OK, not really. I have no clue. :)
     
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  25. nerofer

    nerofer F1 Veteran
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    Same for 328s.

    Gearboxes for:
    - late euro cars are stamped "F106MB",
    - for US cars "F108/40"
    - and for late (catalysed) Swiss cars "F106QB".

    We are investigating on the first euro cars for the time being, some having gearboxes stamped "F108CL".
    One source (the Dirk-Michael Konradt German book) says that gear ratios on "Euro" 328s were modified during the production, in 1987, but it is not confirmed by any other source or Tech Bulletin.
    But the change of designation between the first and the late euro cars' gearboxes, if confirmed, could be interesting to investigate.

    Rgds
     
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  26. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    Don’t know if it makes any difference it the MTL weight is 75w80 as opposed to the 75w90 that most uses.
     
  27. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    There is MT 90 (and MT85) which are the same as MTL with slightly different viscosity. You can blend these Red Line fluids and experiment for the best feel.
     

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