Reformed On Car Control Nannies

I admit it I am a Luddite when it comes to new technology in modern sports cars. IMO sports cars should be about the driver's skill at working the controls as well as driving a track smoothly, yet fast.

I am reformed. Spent a day at the track with the new BMW M-cars and all their electronic nannies, including their newest version of DSG, the twin clutch sequential gear box. We left the nannies on in the most aggressive sport mode.

Man, I get it now. Need to keep a warranty current though. You can drive like an expert an concentrate more on hitting your marks and driving the line. Much more enjoyable and less worry about losing the car. Plus little chance of blowing an engine from an errant shift (did it once long ago).

I must be getting old. I still prefer to drive all the aspects of the car, but I get it for those that don't. And FYI, the fastest way around an autocross track is nannies on, auto shift the DSG and left foot braking.

 

Yeah you'll be in favor of them till they need fixin. $$$$$$$

They do make you faster though.

 

People can make all the fun they want of ABS but when the rain is coming down hard I am glad that soccer mom behind me in her Denali has it. Not everyone is a perfect driver and you can just forget states raising the standards.

 

Imagine the fun when you are late apexxing and blasting out of the corner full throttle tracking to the outside line and all you have to do is look at where you are pointed, then down-track at the next turn-in point. And never worry about doing anything other than hitting your braking and turn-in cones. It really takes some stress off and heightens the fun factor.

And while I respect and enjoy the nannies, computers and gizmos that relieve my task load, I do acknowledge that everything has its cost. Hence, my comment about the warranty. Once it expires, so would my ownership of such a vehicle.

 

Oh I hear you. Anti-lock has saved me plenty of times in the snow.

 

The evolution of nannies reminds me of computer chess. The early implementations were wanting, and it was considered axiomatic that the best drivers would always beat them.

I think those old systems soured a lot of car guys on the concept. I remember driving a '90s Supra whose traction control would induce lift-throttle oversteer in the rain. It was safer to leave it off.

Now we're transitioning to a time when no one is faster without the nannies enabled. ABS has already been there for a while. It can do things that nobody could pull off without four brake pedals.

 

I track my BMW 335 (with automatic trans!) and I always set the nannies to the relaxed mode. Their operation is transparent, the only way I can tell they are intervening is if I notice the light on the dash blinking or when I know I've blown the line yet still manage to stay on the track in spite of ham-fisted driver skills. I also usually let the trans shift itself, sport mode is uncanny in selecting the right gear. And no worries at all about money shifting.

Also, I figure I paid for all that computing power, may as well use it!

 

The GTR had the best and one of the earliest "working" nannies. We always laughed at those guys on track. They were fast but had no clue what was going on. They might as well been driving a video game. Intrusive nannies? No thanks. I'm OK with them in my streetcar not my racecar. It is much easier to go fast with them but if you are pushing your personal envelope whats the point if it is fake. It is kinda like Alonso Yesterday in the post race interview. Interviewer said something like the car looked to be working really good at the end you passing cars. Alonso, "well it was kind of fake I was on new tires."

 

I've studied data and ABS is slower, when engaged. Nice safety net, but not an improvement over true threshold braking in the systems I've seen. I think it speaks volumes that the 997 Cup car dropped ABS that the 996 had.

As for the other driver aids, I have not driven a car yet where I really liked them. Seems like every time the car moves underneath me, the nannies and I are not in synch, like those uncomfortable moments when you try to let a person in the hallway past, just as they try to do the same to you, and only slow each other down in the process.

 

out of curiosity, how'd you get apples to apples data there? same car, same tires, same day and just pull the ABS control unit fuze?

 

I do not doubt one word but those systems are not for you. They are for the dingbat following you with questionable driving skills. Or the one following your wife and kids in a rain storm.

We will never be rid of bad drivers, it is a political impossibility.

 

You can just look at the longitudinal data trace under braking in a given session where ABS is used some of the time. I've seen quite clearly an almost instantaneous drop in heavy brake zones from about 1 g decel to .6 g decel and then quickly back to 1g. The average decel rate with ABS engaged is less than with real threshold braking, at least on some of the cars I've looked at. Its conceivable to me newer systems are better.

 

The braking zone on a dry racetrack isn't really the ABS use case, though. ABS makes it possible to maintain directional control under heavy braking on surfaces with lousy or uneven grip. The problem as I see it is that too many drivers don't take advantage of this feature: they either can't bring themselves to press hard enough on the brake pedal to engage it, or they freeze up and don't bother to steer.

The accident avoidance numbers on stability control are a whole other kettle of fish. This has to be the best-kept secret in highway safety. Around ten years ago when the systems were optional extras, circumstances were perfect to compare accident rates of the same model with and without stability control. As I recall, several studies reported the same rate of accident reduction - around 1/3rd. 1/3rd fewer accidents is an amazing result for a single safety feature.

That suggests what most of us probably suspect: many crashes happen where there is sufficient grip, and the driver is taking action, but he just lacks the car control necessary to pull it off.

 

I have found I'm 2-3 seconds/lap faster on a sub 3 mile track with nannies off on every nanny car I have tried including the vette that I race. The only time the nannies are faster is when I'm overheated driving with a headache. My conclusion is if you are faster nannies on it is a driver development issue.
Ymmv

 

Hey you racers, my comments were strictly relative to driver's education and fun track days, not racing. For us pure amateurs, the nannies do makes us look pretty damned good. If I were a pro driver or drove a race car on the track, I am not sure these things would do me much good. Okay, I take that back, they would, but as my skills improved, I assume there would come a time where I would be faster without the intrusions.

 

Hate to say it, Keith, but data from true Bosch Motorsports ABS and Porsche's PDK (as well as the 458 Challenge and GT3 versions of transmission actuation) destroy conventional cars (and street cars with crappy nanny tuning).

I have terabytes of data to prove it.

There is something WRONG with the car if you can see -1.0 to -.6 to -1.0 in LongG under braking, into T12 at COTA, for instance...

 

I have hear but not experienced real race car nannies but hear they are truely a different kettle of fish from streetcar compromises. What those compromises might be I would love to hear about. What is different about the Bosch motorsports ABS/traction control system that is different fundamentally from streetcars?

What kinds of things would cause the -1 to -.6 to -1 under braking?

 

Peter, my quantitative comment was limited to ABS. A PDK (and even a single clutch dog box) are clearly faster than conventional shifting. Pretty fundamental, really, since PDK and dog boxes never really uncouple the engine from the gearbox insofar as the clutch is concerned.

It sure feels to me as if ABS (even in my prior 996 Cup) was not as effective as threshold braking. I'd love to see same-session, same turn data with ABS deliberately engaged throughout the brake zone compared with skillful threshold braking. Make me a believer with a pair of traces at T12 COTA or maybe Canada at RA. Easy test to try, just modulate one lap and then mat it the next. Are you saying you have that? And I'm not talking about a brief ABS tickle, I'm talking about riding it all the away from brake marker to turn in. Who does that? Unnatural for me, but I also have no ABS race cars at present.

The real area where I wonder how good electronics are is in stability management. When I feel that engage on street cars I drive, it just feels like the car and I work at cross purposes. Just as I make a change to steering lock due to power oversteer on corner exit, I feel the car grab a caliper and together we upset the car and hurt exit speed. I've never felt that the intervention was seemless or augmented my car control, but I have read that some pro drivers are faster aids on.

 

Yeah I get it. I think nannies are great as long as you have the option to turn them all off. I already voiced my displeasure at BMW and told them I would never purchase one with piped in engine noise unless I could turn off that fake feature. To this day there is no way to delete the fake. No 2014+ BMW for me.

 

True dat. I've followed cars with all the nannies on and as I get closer and perhaps affect their concentration they will make a mistake and I expect to see a spin or at least lurid slide and instead I see a aliper grab a corner and keep the car pointed in the right direction. Very cool, but I also wonder if the driver knows how close they came and what happened. I also wonder if the best stability management is so good it augments the best driver.

 

Kieth,

A couple of thoughts.

1. Any car with current abs technology has anti dive built into the suspension so I literally don't know how anyone can do a real apples to apples test.

2. Threshold braking is always best, but current abs is now, I think far superior than all of us at recovering when the threshold is surpassed.

3. I have no clue why Porsche went away from ABS after the 996 cup (not sure what's on the 991) but anyplace it's allowed by rule they use it. if it was faster not to they wouldn't.

Cheers,
David

 

Once I got proficient on the track I had to turn the nannies off, they were heating my brakes up too much, but I'll never have enough money or time to make myself better than ABS.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like ABS as a safety net and it can be very helpful in wet conditions for many reasons, but my point is that I don't think of it as a tool to deliberately use in the way that you can deliberately use no lift shift (PDK or dog box) and traction control and perhaps stability management. I think you are better using ABS to find limits and recover from errors but strive to traditionally threshold brake, but I'll look at segment data.

Seems to me the test is easy. Do your best threshold braking one lap and then deliberately engage the ABS in every heavy brake zone the next lap and ride the ABS in all the way (but OK you can trail in since no one would threshold brake to the apex) and compare. First, I don't think anyone ever does that and second I bet it's slower.

 

Keith, no one deliberately "mats it" and let's the ABS do all the work.

I read your initial wild decel fluctuation observations as the older, cruder ABS systems getting in your way of threshold braking. Did I read wrong?

 

I think we are in basic agreement, and the data to which I referred was from a street car a few years old. But my point is that ABS is not the same kind of driver aid as PDK or traction control. Those are deliberately used as often as possible. ABS is used as infrequently as possible IMO.

Are you saying the Bosch ABS can slow better than threshold braking? If so, one should "mat it." But it seems that no ABS is as good as a well biased car and good modulation. What say you?