Relative thinks LP640 is the best Supercar.

Unfortunately, the LP640 does not seem to be too fast on the track. In the recent SportAuto Supertest (which is by far the most comprehensive international test, including HHR times, NBR times, wet handling benchmarks, wind tunnel tests etc.) the LP640 was only a tad faster than the old LP580 although the LP640 sent to the test was equipped with a special rear wing and sports tires... Handling seems to exhibit strong understeer, no improvement over the old LP580.

 

At Le Mans last year the Lambo GTR finished over 325 miles behind a 430 GT2. Top Gear Test Track? ROTFLMAO

In the latest Road and Track a properly launched 599 went 0-60 in 3.2 seconds. So what. When the real flag drops the bull**** stops. The real flag is dropped on real race courses not in magazines, the Top Gear Test Track, or Internet Videos.

The statement that the LP 640 is the "Best Super Car OF All Time" is laughable. The Veryon can spot it to 125 and will still beat it to 200.

 

Oh noooo, not that sh** again...

 

If you re-read the 599/SLR thread you will find a reference list to magazine test results which contradict the outcome of the 599/SLR video. Also, you will note that the outcome of the 599/CGT video was not seriously questioned as it is consistent with the available press results / factory claims.

Also, you might note that in the available press publications the 599 has been faster (straight line) than the LP640. Does this make the 599 a better car than the LP640? No. The cars are very different and everybody who had the chance to drive / own them both would not argue that either of them is better. These two cars are just different. HOWEVER, it is safe to assume (based on the data available to date) that the 599 is faster than the LP640 by a narrow margin.

 

I said a lot but I didnt say the LP was the best of all time simply because it isnt. IMO its not even the best car Ive owned (note the objectivity). Somebody made a sweeping statement that the 599 would beat a LP in a race and I chose to challenge that statement which ended up being protracted largely due to biased/emotional responses. When I asked for factual support of their claims none was forthcoming. Delusionary comments about a cars performance just because 'I own one' or 'I love it' or 'its a Ferrari' is far more laughable than what I said.

Real races may be won in real competition however the essence of my discussion was direct comparison. I dont know of any races where they use the same driver so I guess mag articles and other tests do have some relevance if you want to compare. I also dont know anyone who said 'I bought a 430 instead of a LP because it beat the Lambo at Le Mans and therefore it must be faster/better'.

Go and do a search for "Driven" in the 599 section and you will see a whole thread of how the deluded thought the 599 was quicker than a CGT. Thats what I referred to previously. The point being that certain people on here actually believe the 599 is the best supercar of all time... how ironic when you look at the first post of this thread. Hey its a good car and I'm sure some people love it but I just cant bring myself to pay £200k for a rebodied 612/old man's looking barge. When Im old, fat, have difficulty getting in and out of the car and need space for a set of golf clubs I'll probably buy one.

 

Harry, you may not be old and fat, nor am I. However, your insinuation that 599 buyers are any of the above, or it is a barge, is arrogant and unsupported.
I like the CGT, and the LP. Don't give a damn which is faster. And I use the trunk for my children's backpacks, my briefcase, and luggage. It's a car to be used. More like a Miura, less like a flash git's car, if we're making generalizations.
L

 

Your view, advocating the irrelevance of comparing two conceptually (utterly) different cars neglects one KEY variable - PRICE.
The LP640 and 599 (at least in the UK) are both priced at approximately the same level and this pricing NECESSARILY invites comparison: laptimes, performance, handling....... eventually this will end in looks, useability and then we're back to square one, where we are comparing two cars built for two different purposes...

BUT... are they really built for two different purposes? The purpose of ANY (manufacturing) company in the world is two make profit. FACT.....by building a product which the market wants and will therfore sell well (margins, production decisions being valid......ceteris paribus)

Ferrari have made an excellent COMMERCIAL decision with the 599. The vast majority of the front-mid engine layout development was done with the 612. The chassis-electronics (e-diff, traction control etc) development with the 430/Enzo. Easy car to develop - easy money - label it a super-sporty GT car.

(THAT is the reason the 550M was born.... Put a stronger V12, further back, into the 456GT and put a luggage shelf where the rear seats arem - easy money - inspite of LDM may tell you, that's also the reason why the 512M/TR had to die. The 456 was UTTERLY different, the 348/355 totally different again it was silly - the whole setup back then at Ferrari was a loss making exercise).

Ferrari simultaneously realised that they weren't really leveraging their brand. They realised, that with the economy the way it is, they could build ANYTHING and there would be waiting lists...
Brand leverage + shared platforms = Ferrari 599 - a Ferrari that, starts in Auto mode by default (disgraceful IMO for a company famed for building involving and demanding cars) - the latter is just shameful pandering to the 60+ wealthy US audience.

Why is this relevant? Well because when I'm spending £210,000 I will look at all alternatives*** and this where the LP640 comes in.
Technologically it's far less advanced the 599, it may be slower, it may even be dated BUT, to my mind, it is far LESS of a commercial exercise than the 599 - more bespoke as it were (and yes I AM aware it uses plenty of VAG-sourced parts). It's built because that's what the manufacturer thinks a supercar should be like not because development sharing across ranges increases margins.
This may mean the driving experience is inferior but MY GOD, at least I won't feel like I'm being conned into a 2 seat 612 for £220,000 while Ferrari spout crap about making their mid-front-engined layout being cutting edge (if so, why doesn't the Enzo share the same layout).

A production mid 12 from Ferrari will NOT ever come into existence until discerning wealthy Ferrari-buyers owners start looking beyond the need to buy WHATEVER Ferrari build and actually at what they're buying. I want Ferrari to go back to their (loss-making roots) and start dictating to the customer with a focussed product.. instead of pandering to the customer and adding auto modes to their cars. With an excellent business man like LDM in charge its not going to happen. Lamborghini will VERY quickly head the same way and Porsche were there years ago (hence them being the most profitable car manufacturer in the world).

Oh and don't make the mistake of "invalidating" my argument because you may mistakenly assume, I am unable to afford (or worse) have never driven these cars. I've driven just about everything AT length and could buy a few of these cars tomorrow.

Regards

Nik.

***(believe me 410SA, you're a wealthy chap and you don't need to consider alternatives - you can buy them ALL - but there are plenty of people who cannot buy a 599 AND an LP640 - only one of them- with easy credit causing soaring exotic car sales, most of these are bought with a monthly payment in mind - to many people £3000 per month is fine but £7500 is NOT).

 

This part I don't agree with.

"I also dont know anyone who said 'I bought a 430 instead of a LP because it beat the Lambo at Le Mans and therefore it must be faster/better"

For many years Ferrari has sold many cars based on it's racing success. It was Ferrari's racing success that enabled Mr. Ferrari to sell his first car which he referred to in a letter, a car I now own:

"Selling Our victorious cars enabled us to keep the factory open."

There is no question that without Racing success Ferrari would not exist today.

Risi Competizone who's F430 recently won in class at Sebring sells many Ferrari's to people who do care about Ferrari's racing victories past and present.

Cheers

 

Nic

Interesting points but IMHO as Porsche now has controlling interest in VAG there is no question that Lambo will be run as a "Business" and not as a "Toy"
(Porsche's Words)

Cheers

 

I understand all that you say here, and like everything in life, it is all relative to a POV. I don't think price is a factor in this $300,000 plus arena. This is the price level where you can afford it so you buy it. I doubt there are are people on a savings plan, cutting down on dinners out in order to buy a 640 or a 599.

When it comes to magazine racing you can find any outcome you want, depending on what you read. In choice of cars, especially current models, this is somewhat akin to (in USA terms) being a Ford man or a Chevy man. You love the one and denigrate the other for no reason other than that is the way it's always been in your life.

I love cars, especially older cars. I think the Muira is one of the best ever created, but the LP640 is simply impractical for me. I wouldn't consider it for a host of reasons that are specific and personal and subjective. The same reasons apply to the Enzo for me. I don't have any desire to own one. I paid more than the market price of an Enzo for an old well driven and somewhat dinged up Aston, simply because I love that car!
With regard to the 599 specifically, Ferrari hit a home run from my specific POV. They built a wonderful car that does everything I want in a car like that. And I'm delighted they are profitable, because they will continue responding to their market with better products. Your point is valid here - I am their market. I really don't want them building unsustainable models and going the way of Lambo which has bounced around several owners until it landed at VAG where it is slowly being homogenized (for those Lambo fans without sufficient vocabulary, this has nothing to do with homosexuality) and picked apart so that Audis can use Lambo engines and Lambos can become like Audis in their interiors. I like Ferrari just the way it is - Dominant in F1 and GT racing and building great competent cars that meet the desires of their buyers.
The point I made in another thread was that I really don't understand why in a specific Ferrari centric forum does anyone feel the need to denigrate Ferrari. I'm sure there are many other places where like minded people can have a go at Ferrari, or Bugatti or anything else they don't like.
These threads really get out of hand regarding undefinable subjective things. People don't go onto specific faith religious forums dissing those beliefs, why do we do it with cars. (I guess governments simply bypass the forum aspect and go straight to war )

 

"(I guess governments simply bypass the forum aspect and go straight to war )"



It's interesting to note that in the day the contests were often referred to:

"The Ford Ferrari Wars"

 

I dont follow Le Mans but havent the Porsches dominated the Ferraris over the past few years? And didnt the Astons embarass the Porsches in some other event recently? Beating another manufacturer at Le Mans or any other race is not really a material factor when making a direct comparison of the performance of two consumer vehicles. It may bring about brand allegiance, favourites and influence but you wont come to the conclusion that the F430 is faster than the LP640 just because the Ferrari's were faster than the Lambos in the GT class. Personal preference and actual performance are two completely different issues. You may have laughed at my reference to TG however Ferrari beating Lambo at Le Mans is a bit of a red herring when comparing the performance of 2 production vehicles on a like for like basis. The 430 is not faster than the LP and we all know that.

Ferrari may have sold many cars on the back of its racing success but Lambo, Koenigsegg and Pagani havent sold many. One could construe your point quite poorly i.e. they rely on racing success to sell production vehicles as the product cannot sell itself.

LOL! No offence intended. I see your point but isnt it a little sad when your Ferrari has become the chosen vehicle for childrens backpacks etc. I would have preferred the 'no compromise' option from Ferrari. Napolis touched on this point earlier.

 

There nothing sad about taking your kids to school in a Ferrari at all! I think it it's brilliant that Ferraris are so reliable and user friendly these days that they can be used for car pool duty during the week and enjoyed thoroughly on weekends being driven in a spirited fashion around the countryside. It sure beats doing the same thing in a minivan or SUV

 

Can't believe how many hot buttons have gotten pushed here. For my jollies I'd like a Radical SR9. So what. My wife is right... we're a bunch of idiots. So what.

 

NO !!! You're a bunch of idiots !!! So there !!!

 

No offense, but how could they, they have neither competed sucessfully, nor sold many cars, in comparison.

 

Well I'll have to run that by my wife. On second thought, never mind.

 

Yes and Ferrarri LOAST.

 

Word, they totally loast.

 

Is that something like toast, but Swedish perhaps?

 

Yeah Wayne, and Lambo didn't even compete with Matra-Simca.

But I bet Lambo LOAST to Ford in many a Tractor-Pull

Give it a rest.

 

Tru Dat

 

1960 LeMans
1- Ferrari
2- Ferrari
3- Aston Martin
4- Ferrari
5- Ferrari
6- Ferrari
7- Ferrari

1961 LeMans
1- Ferrari
2- Ferrari
3- Ferrari
4- Maserati

1962 LeMans
1- Ferrari
2- Ferrari
3- Ferrari
4- Jag

1963
1- Ferrari
2- Ferrari
3- Ferrari
4- Ferrari
5- Ferrari
6- Ferrari
7- AC Cobra

1964
1- Ferrari
2- Ferrari
3- Ferrari
4- AC Cobra
5- Ferrari
6- Ferrari
7- Ferrari

1965
1- Ferrari
2- Ferrari
3- Ferrari
4- Porsche
(6 GT40s started the race - all DNF)

1966
1- Ford
2- Ford
3- Ford
4- Porsche
(10 GT40s DNFd - 3 finished)

1967
1- Ford
2- Ferrari
3- Ford
4- Ferrari
(10 DNFs of GT40s inc Mirage Lightweights, 2 of 16 entered finished)

1968
1- Ford
2- Porsche
3- Porsche
4- Alfa
(5 GT40s entered, 1 finished)

1969
1- Ford
2- Porsche
3- Ford
4- Matra-Simca

1970
1- Porsche
2- Porsche
3- Porsche
4- Ferrari

Yes, Ferrarri<sic> did lose a few to Ford, no shame in that. The GT40s were developed into a formidable endurance racer. But, I was suprised by the numbers, when I started looking at them. In 66 and 67, Ford was definitely in strong attendance.

 

Jim,
Isn't the F40-F50-Enzo-Enzo replacement the top of the line Ferrari and we are just in a lull between them? Or do you mean a more widely produced Ferrari? I admit right up front that I am not as knowledgeable on this topic so I would like to learn more.

It seems to me that as production volumes go up this is only normal to have this: halo car in limited production, then other models. I understand that the LP compares to a 599 in price and right now both represent the top of each marque's range. But in my mind the Enzo is what Ferrari puts out there to say: this is our best, our next cars will contain some trickle down from this. See if you can match it! ha! And I do not see anything quite the same from Lamborghini. I do not think the LP stacks up quite as well against an Enzo- and if you look at the way the Enzo appreciated for its original owners I wonder if the LP would match this performance either. To be fair to Lamborghini, this is the tact they should be taking against Ferrari. I just object to statements like "the best" and "ever" those are very big shoes to fill and I suspect you would be one of the most qualified to pick one if you felt so inclined. I think its more of a group of cars that would be considered. Just like anything else- you can't really have "the best" without some context.

It would seem that the 599 is similar to the 612 in terms of more sedate styling, but this just comes down to personal preference. I do think this is the one place in the Ferrari lineup that they could have made a car that is more of a 599 in terms of performance and styling and it would have four seats and then they would be freed up to do a higher volume "supercar" ala the LP. But then, of course, how high performance must the Enzo replacement be to justify its existence and price? I know this is partly what the FXX program is getting at- to see what the driving abilities of the Enzo customer are. This is a good idea but lets be fair, for most of us, our abilities are fairly well below those of these wonderful machines. I know from reading that this is something Ferrari is sensitive to.

The LP is comparatively outrageous looking no doubt. I agree with you on the wow factor, but what makes me go wow is not just looks but knowing what the car is all about. For me the 599 makes me say wow more than the LP. Its the technology deployed and the manner it is deployed which excites me. The LP is a little more blunt force approach, which I can appreciate but doesn't leave me with the same wow factor.

Btw- long time admirer here and enjoyed seeing the P4/5 at Pebble last year. I love everything it stands for.

Oh, and Clapton smokes all those other guys. He is, after all, G-d!

I wonder what he drives?

best regards,
Jerry

 

Jerry

Slo Hand is VERY good.

I mean I'd perfer a mid 12 as top of regular line as 599 is now. I think Ferrari should have a great GT car as well it's just that I see the 612 and 599 as one too many GT cars in their line up.

Lambo's top of line is a Mid 12 and I think Ferrari's should be as well. (Regular production)

VAG's Veryon is really the one to be compared with Ferrari's limited editions like the Enzo.

Bill

The one I own came in 4th OA not 3rd in 67. (Two of the Ferrari's I own dnf'ed there in 67 but one did ok at Daytona and the other at SPA in 67. )

Here's a commercial you'll never see from Lambo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qT_q8PXFrw

Just crossing tape that P is raising stake in VW...
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