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Relay question

Discussion in '308/328' started by GrayTA, Oct 17, 2009.

  1. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    I just replaced the protection relay in my '85 QV. Now my battery has developed a drain, which I feel pretty confident is because I may have the wires run incorrectly. I had to go with the relay thats used in the 328/TRs, so its not quite exactly the right part (the qv version is no longer available). I used the info from Steve Magnusson in my "not running right" thread, but there were some oddities in my wiring during that adventure.

    Can someone verify which wire goes to which connector on the relay?

    There are four wires:

    large tan
    two smaller tan
    black
    three wires together

    the connectors are:

    15
    30
    31
    87

    Thanks for any and all help.


    PDG
     
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  3. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
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    #2 Paul_308, Oct 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 Steve Magnusson, Oct 18, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2009
    Are you saying that, with the key "off" and the (328) protection relay plugged in, the current draw from the battery is "X" milliamps, but with the key "off" and the protection relay unplugged, the current draw from the battery is "Y" milliamps -- and X is greater than Y?

    If so, can you give the current values X and Y?

    Here is the schematic for the 328/TR protection relay for comparison to the one Paul posted for the 308QV protection relay:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    One thing you should confirm is that the two smaller beige (tan) wires are at 0V relative to ground when the key is "off". If they are not, you have another problem elsewhere.
     
  5. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
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    Reconciling the new relay to the old socket...

    30 and 31 are same
    new relay 30 = socket 30 ( singe brown to metering valve )
    new relay 31 = socket 31 ( black ground )
    new relay 15 = socket 86 ( two beige wires )
    new relay 87 = socket 30a ( 3 brown/black wires )

    Re Current drain...
    the two beige wires go to the WUR and AAV
    the 3 brown/black are virtual ground (common) for many components
    black is chassis ground
    single beige is metering valve common

    The ECU controls the goings on and gets power only when ignition is in run position.

    I see nothing you could have done wrong at the new relay which would affect ignition off battery drain.
     
  6. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3

    Mar 12, 2004
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    In looking further...one of the two beige wires also goes to the fuel pump and fp relay, getting voltage at the same time the fuel pump gets voltage.

    The reason that protection relay and fuse exist, there were cases of the o2 sensor getting blown from voltage spikes caused by faulty alternator or by push/jump starting. In most cases the zener clips the spikes, in cases of extreme spikes, the fuse gets blown. Apparently, there were too many 'extreme' cases so the powers the be relocated the fuse from internal (US QV) to external (328/TR) to reduce repair cost of replacment.

    Which should be a lesson learned to US QV owners especially, on how they handle a drained battery.
     
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  8. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    Ok, so here is the story:

    I followed all the steps in my "Update on my not running right" thread -

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=254951


    Well, finally last week I got in a new Frequency Valve. I spent a little time and got it in place. Once I had that done it didnt do what it was supposed to do. So, I went back and reconnected the original QV protection relay just to see what would happen. Once I did that the FV started running on its own without the key in the ignition. Then I started the car and it ran great!! I made a quick jaunt about town to get some fresh fuel and to feel the car again. Now I KNOW what should be happening at the FV, that was a very interesting lesson.

    Once I got it back home I simply unplugged the FV to stop it running. I checked Fchat and found this thread:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=256969&highlight=frequency+valve


    The next morning I thought, "Ok, I can fix this tonight. I will just drive it to work so people stop harassing me about my F-car not running." (its become a running joke about me and this car) I drove it to work and simply unplugged the FV when I wasnt driving.

    At lunch, it ran great. When I went to go home the battery was dead, I had to get a jump from another co-worker. So, once I got it home I put it back on the trickle charger which went into a cycle (telling me that something wasnt right). Once I unplugged the protection relay the charger acted as normal and did not go into its "warning mode." This is what clues me in to it being something with the protection relay that caused a drain. I let it charge the battery, then restarted from scratch reconnecting the Protection Relay. Now, it is not getting power to the FV at all.

    I tried using the jumper as outlined by Steve Magnusson in post #8 of the Update thread and it worked great!

    So, now whether I have the QV relay plugged in or the brand new 328 relay plugged in I am getting the same result - no power to the FV.

    Before I go ordering another relay I want to ensure that I have the right wires plugged into the right connectors, or is there something else I am missing.

    Boy, am I learning a lot dealing with this!!! Its fun though!! However, I think I would have more fun driving my car.



    PDG
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #7 Steve Magnusson, Oct 19, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2009
    With the K-Jet safety switch unplugged and with the key "on" -- which should turn the fuel pump and FV "on" (with the engine not running) make these measurements on the plugged in 328 protection relay:

    voltage between terminal 15 and terminal 31 = should be +12V

    voltage between terminal 30 and terminal 31 = should be +12V

    voltage between terminal 87 and terminal 31 = should be +12V

    based on the pass/fail of these three test, we should be able to deduce if the "new" protection relay is bad or if you have a problem somewhere else.

    PS If the FV is (wrongly) buzzing when the key is "off", just unplugging the FV will not stop the battery from being drained as other non-audible things will still be running -- e.g., the injection ECU, the O2 sensor heater, etc....
     
  10. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    @Paul - your information is EXTREMELY helpful as well. Thank you!!


    Just measured the voltage as Steve suggested with the 328 relay in place correctly and came up with the following:

    31-15 was 1.48V
    31-30 was 12.02V
    31-87 was 12.02V

    So, appears that 15 is the "bad guy"

    When I get this car running right again I am going to need to do something super nice for you Steve. Thank you!!



    PDG
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Your results don't make a whole lot of sense (and aren't a combination from which an easy conclusion can be drawn) -- if terminal 87 is at +12V, your FV (and engine) should be working the same as when you use the jumper wire to connect the +12V on terminal 30 directly to terminal 87 -- was your FV buzzing as it should? Does the engine run well now?

    That ~1.5V on terminal 15 does seem very odd -- it should be the same +12V that runs the fuel pump as Paul stated. Might be useful to make the same type of measurements, but use the engine casting itself as the ground reference (and do them both with key "off" and key "on") -- i.e., measure:

    with key "off"
    terminal 15 to ground = should be 0V
    terminal 31 to ground = should be 0V
    terminal 30 to ground = should be +12V
    terminal 87 to ground = should be 0V

    with key "on" and safety switch unplugged
    terminal 15 to ground = should be +12V
    terminal 31 to ground = should be 0V
    terminal 30 to ground = should be +12V
    terminal 87 to ground = should be +12V

    Sorry to make you do this again (and twice as much), but your prior results just don't seem possible (i.e., a low voltage on terminal 15 shouldn't close the protection relay, so terminal 87 should not be at +12V).
     
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  13. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    For my clarity which is the safety switch? Its possible that I undid the wrong plug to get the measurements earlier.



    As per your suggestion I measured using the engine as a ground and got:

    Off position

    15 = 0
    31 = 0
    30 = 12.52
    87 = 0

    On position

    15 = 0
    31 = 0
    30 = 12.06
    87 = 10. 5


    Is that radically different or does it explain something?


    PDG
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 Steve Magnusson, Oct 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here's a jpeg showing the safety switch. Was the "on" data in your prior post (using the engine as ground) taken with the safety switch plugged in or unplugged? If it was plugged in, please unplug and retake the data with the key "on" (you should hear the fuel pump run when the safety switch is unplugged and the key is "on").
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    Let's try this again.

    With the correct plug unplugged I retook the measurements and got the following results using the engine as the ground:

    Off position

    15 - 0
    30 - 12.45
    31 - 0
    87 - 0

    In the on position

    15 - 10.42
    30 - 11.98
    31 - 0
    87 - 0


    In the on position I fo hear what I believe is the fuel pump, but no sign of the fv buzzing.


    PDG
     
  16. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes, with the 87 terminal at 0V, the FV will not run. Either the 10A fuse is blown, the protection relay is "bad", or terminal 31 isn't connected to ground (as it should be). For the next steps:

    1. make sure that the 10A fuse is OK,

    2. repeat this "on" test (with the safety switch unplugged) and add a jumper wire to (for sure) connect terminal 31 to ground -- if terminal 15 is at the ~10V, and terminal 31 is connected to ground, and terminal 30 is at +12V, but terminal 87 is not at +12V, the protection relay itself must be "bad".
     
  17. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    I finally found the time to run this next step.

    I found:

    15 - 10.3
    30 - 11.98
    31 - 0
    87 - 0

    The fuse was fine.

    So it appears that my "new" relay from Ricambi is bad. Gotta love that huh?


    PDG
     
  18. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    So last night I am out just playing with my car and the relays and how its all connected and I just decided to try the old original relay. I connect it and re-connect the battery and lo and behold the FV starts running. Mind you - the engine is off and the key is not in the ignition, but its getting juice now?

    So, I drove it up the street to get some fuel and drove it back (just had to get behind the wheel). Then when I got home I disconnected the battery and went on about my business.


    To summarize the whole story:

    On my way back from the dealership (six hours away), two weeks after I got the car it had a sudden loss of power. I limped back home (about four hours). Did some research and it appeared that the Protection Relay was bad. I got a new one. Plugged it in - no change. Did more checking, found that I needed a new Frequency Valve - got it. Car ran with the FV on all the time, caused a battery drain. Disconnected the new relay, reconnected it. Nothing at the FV worked at all. Did more electrical tests, pointed to the NEW relay being bad. Disconnected it, then put the old one in. Now the FV is on all the time (as outlined above).

    Whats going on with my car now??? Is this a halloween thing?? Someone playing a joke on me?

    I intend to re-run the tests I have already done to get to this point, but this isnt making any sense to me at all. One time I run it and shows one thing, the next time it does something completely different?


    PDG
     
  19. CliffBeer

    CliffBeer Formula 3

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    Patrick, yes, that protection relay is NLA for your car. However, when I was looking at similar issues a couple years ago I found that the protection relay out of a porsche 928 is the same (as far as I could tell). I installed the porsche part in my 88 3.2 and it seems to function correctly. Just an idea. Was something like $80 bucks from a specialist 928 parts vendor.
     
  20. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    #17 GrayTA, Oct 30, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2009
    But here is the thing: I got a new Protection Relay for a 328 and just had to re-run a few wires - a minor issue and it did the same thing.

    I dont mind getting yet another one if thats what the issue is. I just want to drive the car and not have to disconnect the battery when I get out because the FV will continue to run or not run at all.

    Could there be a short or something earlier in the system that would cause it to do this? Or is this most likely an internal issue within the relay(s) themselves?


    PDG
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 Steve Magnusson, Oct 30, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2009
    Patrick -- Are you changing the description of the symptoms? I thought you reported that the original 308QV protection relay sometimes didn't work and then sometimes it stuck in the "on" position (running the FV when the key is "off"), but that the "new" 328 protection relay never turned "on". Are you now saying that the 328 protection relay is also sometimes stuck "on" (when the terminals measure as you show in post #14)?

    I don't mean to condemn recent shipments of 328 protection relays, but here's another recent example where a 2nd replacement was needed:

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=256969
     
  22. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    Actually, the car seems to be inconsistent with its issues. One time I hook a relay up and the FV runs non-stop, then I unhook it and reconnect it and it doesnt run at all.

    That has been the case with both the original relay and the new 328 relay.


    PDG
     
  23. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Forgot to add that if the FV stays "on", when the key is "off", you could deduce some good information by noting what the fuel pump is, or isn't, doing -- i.e.:

    FV "on" and fuel pump "on" when key "off" = problem upstream of protection relay

    FV "on" and fuel pump "off" when key "off" = most likely bad protection relay
     
  24. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    Thr fuel pump is definitely off when the key is on, but the fv is running. This again points to a bad relay. I hate that, because I had just bought a new one.

    Is there any harm running the car around until I get another new one? I have simply disconnected the battery to keep it from draining the battery when not driving it. So far, that has worked ok, but I dont want to damage anything of course.

    Steve - you are truly one of F-Chats most valued members. Thank you.

    @Cliff - thanks for that info. I got the one from Ricambi for the 328, probably the same part, but Ferrari prices, etc... That is a valuable piece of info, so I guess I will look for that and see if its cheaper as a 928 part.



    PDG
     

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