Reliable source information on Scuderia & 16M production numbers for U.S.

i only hope for 1 thing for scuderia owners on fchat. that we not find ourselves birthing a thread hundreds of pages deep where all we talk about is the value of the car...

 

why not , there some people are down grade the 430 scuds. value so they can pick them up real cheap , dream on like they said 2 years ago supply and demand well there no supply and alot of demand on the scuds. So the value are just going to go up.

 

was just checking on the prices on the scud, there are already at 225k, and there even one at 429k look at the 360-430 posts this is great news for scud owners

 

+1

 

But what else do we talk about when we already know how good and raw the scud is in terms of performance especially on the track. You can not help but talk about value especially with the Speciale in production now and the 458T coming out soon. So it's a good idea to snatch up one now before its value will continue to climb and a good no story scud will be hard to find.

 

i agree 100% the scuds are going to be very rare and the value will continues to climb in the next few years , alot people don,t like to hear that , a few years ago someone said it all about supply and demand well there no supply )

 

What does it say that you continue to click and read?

 

and a lot of the SCUDS on the market are black and just sit for ages, unsold, languish and remain after buyers selected the other Scud colors to purchase.
Supply and Demand

Look at all the black Scuds:

ZFFKW64A190168161
2009 Ferrari F430 Scuderia, $188,000 - Cars.com

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Used 2009 Ferrari F430 16M AUTO For Sale | Plano TX

17 SCUDS on Cars.com:
Used Ferrari - Black in 85205 Area - on Cars.com

16M
ZFFKW66A090167435
2009 Used Ferrari 430 2dr Conv Scuderia Spider 16M at Penske Wynn Ferrari Serving Las Vegas,Los Angeles, NV, IID 11724446

ZFFKW66A090166799
2009 Used Ferrari 430 at Penske Wynn Ferrari Serving Las Vegas,Los Angeles, NV, IID 12141192

ZFFKW66A390168269
2009 Ferrari F430 Scuderia Spider 16M - Driving Emotions - Palm Beach, FL | Exotic & Luxury Car Dealership Specializing in Aston Martin, Bentley, Bugatti, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, Rolls-Royce, RENNtech, and more.

ZFFKW64A690167250
2009 Ferrari F430 Scuderia - Pre-Owned Inventory

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Used 2009 Ferrari F430 For Sale | Seattle WA[/QUOTE]

 

Of course the values are going to continue to climb... When I bought mine I paid top dollar and... They prices had already started to climb at that point and I have no plan to sell as I don't see anythjng else I want... The car is very unique exciting and already to fast for me to handle. Thank god this thing has traction control!!!

 

Hard to argue with the Supply point that Finitele is making. Hoping to upgrade from my 360Spider to a 16M someday and black would be my preferred color. If these black 16Ms (and Scuds) aren't moving, then at some point the sellers will have to accept the reality that their values are declining, and maybe one seller will be willing to accept a price that I will pounce on. I love the one at Boardwalk with the very subtle gray racing stripe...that one would be my ideal car I think.

It's interesting that these (relatively new) cars are already being treated by so many owners as collector pieces because of the scarcity and nobody wants to put miles on them. I would prefer a cheaper car with $10k miles on it, but I understand why nobody wants to take that depreciation hit. When (not if) I buy mine I will drive it and drive it.

 

Yes

 

I kinda skimmed over some of the posts in this thread. In addition to 430 Scuderias and 16Ms, I have been actively composing a database of all Ferraris and their individual histories.

So far, I have documented 1,324 Scuderias. Of those 1,324 Scuderias, 543 are US examples - roughly half are 2008 USA models and the other half are 2009 models.

I've also documented 394 16Ms - which, based on other limited edition models I've documented, suggests that Ferrari made considerably more than 499. Of those 394, I have 224 US examples, all of which are 2009 USA models.

 

Very interesting Carbon.

I know Ferrari has a reputation for producing more cars than it says, but it seems very unethical when they actual badge the cars with that limited production number like this.

Anyway, I'm glad there are more because I ultimately don't care as much about collectibility...if there are more than people think, then it helps explain why supply and demand may not be in synch...sellers think they have something more unique and rare than it really is, and eventually the market will prove them wrong I suppose. This comment applies to 16Ms more than Scuds I think...16Ms seem to be selling for $75k premium and that may not sustain itself...

 

I don't believe Ferrari ever announced an official limit on Scuderias - only 16Ms. Also, even though the 16Ms are badged as being limited to 499 units, Ferrari stopped giving each limited edition model its own series number (e.g., F50 104035 is series number 057/349); this made it more difficult for spotters like me to identify the entirety of a limited model's run. It also makes it easier for the factory to make more than they claim - like the Aperta, which actually had a unique feature: models weren't adorned with series plaques, but original owners could order a series number plaque for $1K; and now there are two Apertas numbered 80/80, and way more than 80 Apertas.

I've never been able to get a handle on the exclusivity factor. I remember the first time I drove a Boxster S; I was like, "holy ****, these things are everywhere?" If Ferrari made a million 599 GTOs, would they be any less thrilling? People should create their own exclusivity - bespoke liveries and interiors, instead of everyone ordering resale red. But I suppose that's mere opinion, and a discussion for another day.

 

I agree entirely, which is why i said i don't care about collectibility. I'm just trying to anticipate the possibility that I'll be able to afford a 16M sooner rather than later.

If they made a CS Spider, I would own that right now and probably prefer it anyway....even if they made 10000 of them!

 

While I don't know your budget - nor am I asking - I believe a 16M will be affordable. I noticed an interesting trend among Scuderias and 16Ms that greatly differed/differs from Stradales. The ones that showed up for sale showed mileage more conducive with being used as opposed to being collected. Many of the Stradales that I saw for sale during the first few years after they came out had low miles. Then, America's economy **** the bed, and when Scuderias and 16Ms came up for sale, they showed usage - I got the impression that people had woken up and realized they couldn't take these things with them.

You know we have a member here who converted a manual 360 Spider to a Challenge Stradale Spider, right? CS engine, three pedals, open top - you know why he doesn't post here anymore? Too busy driving what is possibly one of the most amazing one-offs ever created.

 

You mean when the Scuds came up, the CSs showed usage? I agree if that's your point - rare to find ultra low mile CSs, but many of these 16Ms are still barely driven. Other than it being a shame, it indicates that owners purchased somewhat for speculation rather than enjoyment. Scuds seem to get driven more than 16Ms, although I'm sure there are exceptions.

I just came across that thread (one of my all-time favorites) and commented on how great it is that he's put so many miles on it. Truly an amazing one-of-a-kind car and in Black on top of everything else. I told Enrique to call me if he ever wants to sell it! But I wouldn't go through that process myself, which is why I am hopeful about a 16M someday.

And I don't mind telling you that, while I don't know what my budget is, I certainly won't pay $250k for a 16M when I can get a low mileage 430 Spider for $100k less (or better). I know it's a different car, but I think that a premium like that is really asking a lot for the badge and collectibility, which I'm not interested in. I intend to drive it.

Thanks for the great perspective.

 

From a very good source I heard that Ferrari originally had no intention in making a 16M. The idea came from all the extra 430 spider bodies (chasies) that Ferrari had intended to produce but they never did.

 

No, what I meant was, when I started seeing Scuderias and 16Ms coming up for sale a few years after the Scuderia and 16M were introduced, they seemed to show more mileage than the Stradales that came up for sale a few years after the Stradale was introduced. So, for example, a few years after the CS came out, I would see advertisements where the cars only had one or two thousand miles - sometimes less. But a few years after the Scuderia and 16M were released, the ads I saw showed an exponential increase in mileage. This is only one man's observation, and I was never specifically seeking cars for sale - just anything with a serial number, for sale or not, so that I could document it.

That would be a helluva car to acquire - whether one has a collection, or just a single car, it's an undisputed centerpiece.

There's a justification in the premium for a, let's say, 599 GTO, compared to a GTB or even an HGTE. And while I've never driven a 16M, the F430 Spider was a lot of fun - but I suspect the 16M would need to an overwhelming advance to warrant an additional $100K.

While I don't know if this is really true, it makes a world of sense to me. But Ferrari has been making limited edition examples of standard models for years, so it only makes sense that they would make a limited edition model of the F430 - then again, maybe they only intended to make the 430 Scuderia and not the 16M, and the extra F430 Spiders were a happy accident. I seem to recall this happened with another model - they had extra bodies (or maybe extra engines?) laying around, so they decided to use the extras for a limited edition example of that model.

 

By way of comparison do you have figures for 575 Superamerica?

 

You are getting more than collectibility and a badge. After all, it is not the badge and premium that make the 16M (or Scud vs F430) lighter, faster and more visceral.

100K (or probably less difference for a 09 pristine 430 spider) is not much premium when you start doing the math on all the carbon bits and improvements. I would be scared to see the price of upgrading a spider with:
1. Carbon Intake Plenums
2. Upgraded Engine (more power--especially at the low end is not cheap)
3. Carbon interior door panels as well as full carbon interior
4. Lighter scud front and rear bumpers.
5. Larger ceramic brakes (398mm front)
6. Scud wheels with Titanium bolts.
7. SuperFast 2 transmission hardware and software upgrade (essential for those fast violent shifts!)
8 Carbon engine bay
9. Carbon air boxes
10. carbon headlights
11. Carbon Door Sills
12. Racing Seats. I think these make a massive difference especially if you are tall as you sit so much lower and further back (they are thin).
13. Upgraded Suspension w/bumpy road setting.
14. More Manettino Settings (etrac/ediff modifications?)
15. Carbon Mirrors
16. Carbon/LED wheel
17. Fire Extinguisher (most 16Ms seem to have this).
18. Large carbon rear diffuser.
19. Rear challenge grill (may not need to upgrade).
20. Revised Air intake
21. Upgraded Exhaust
22. Carpet and Insulation deletion. Depends how much you want to match the scud. But if you do this it is obviously cheap to remove carpet but not free to make it look nice.

Not sure if that is everything..but I think if you spent 100K to upgrade the spider you would not get through the list and you would probably lose a ton of money when it comes time to trade in the car. Also, obliviously, the rarity of the 16M is not on the list--that is obviously not worth zero.

 

That all makes sense Galt, and I don't disagree. But even if all these components cost $200k separately, for me personally the driving experience and enjoyment of all these upgrades isn't likely worth $100k+ of my personal hard-earned dollars over a 430 Spider. I'm not doubting that it's better, and if enough buyers in the market view the incremental driving experience as worth $100k, then that premium will stay in place. Certainly what's happening in the CS market right now may support your point...and maybe keep me out of the market for a 16M

 

Fair enough and can easily understand. For many they understandably prefer the f430 spider driving experience and find the scud/16m too raw and noisy.

No reason to pay more if that is not the type of car you want or don't value it. Unless it is a pure price speculation but even then I would argue that it is better to buy a car that you will enjoy the most!

 

Oh noes!!

Funny I just met a neighbor w a matte brown aventador. One of the only ones in the world. He walks over to my scud and says "I have car envy!". He went on to say that he think scuds will increase in value because of what amazing cars they are. I told him I agreed but though it would take some time. Guess we'll see.
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4. 16M has lighter front and rear bumpers compared to the Scud. With the 16M Ferrari increased chassis stiffening compared to 430 Spider and to keep the weight down many items that were optional on the Scud became standard on the 16M, even this wasn't enough so the bumpers were further lightened.
23. Stiffened Chassis
24. Optional forged 5 spoke 16M wheels.