Removal of Power Transistor Rivets | FerrariChat

Removal of Power Transistor Rivets

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by vincenzo, Apr 24, 2022.

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  1. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    So…. way up above the passenger footwell are 2ea 1/8” pop rivets which hold the Power Transistor in place within the AC ductwork. Access space is next to nothing. With these two items, I can touch the rivet head to conceivably drill them out, but the contortion level is so high it looks like it’ll become a butcher job. The rivets are mounted in the plastic ductwork…. one slip and it’ll tear up the plastic duct.

    Does anybody have a better idea for getting at these rivets?

    Perhaps the knee bolster should come out….

    Suggestions would be appreciated!

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  2. awatkins

    awatkins Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2005
    396
    SFO Peninsula
    Full Name:
    Alan Watkins
    I do not know how to remove the transistor from its original position. I avoided doing so by abandoning the dead transistor and its grossly undersize heat sink and instead bought a replacement heatsink + transistor fo about $100, which provided me with the needed wiring harness to the transistor. I discarded that heatsink and mounted the transistor on a reasonable one mounted elsewhere and easy to access. This is based on my experience and belief the original heatsink and mounting location are almost guaranteed to fail repeatedly.
     
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  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,731
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
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  4. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    Steve,
    The vent grill is out. The below leather panel did not pivot for access…. still, with some finagling the vent slid out.

    The wiring from the transistor exits the plenum immediately to the side. The 3 wire connector is outside of the plenum.

    Yeah…. and a constipated rectum at that. Lots of s**t under that dash.

    Alan,
    I like your approach. Rule #1: do no harm. Just leave the old unit in the vent.

    Looking around in the footwell doesn’t show much of an ez relocation spot with plenty of air circulation. I may need to fab up a plate upon which to mount the new unit.

    Just how hot does this unit get? Is it a fire hazard that must be well away from anything flammable…. like leather?
     
  5. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    The pic is Ricambi’s replacement power transistor. The pdf is everything you never wanted to know about power transistors.

    Apparently, “ON” is a brand name…. duh.

    Even with all that, I have yet to figure out how to wire them up. As far as I can tell, the leads off the power transistors are unmarked. Any ideas? Is polarity(?) irrelevant?
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    Attached Files:

  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,731
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    It's "Style 1" in the drawing on page 6 of 7 of the pdf (the page itself is labeled "1" at the bottom). The outer metal case is the collector. The pattern of the leads is asymmetric so just hook up the new transistor same as your old transistor.
     
  7. mexicruiser

    mexicruiser Karting

    Aug 28, 2012
    241
    Full Name:
    Jon
    Not sure if relevant at this point but I have used a similar flexible drill adaptor with the hex drill bits (to remove the rivets on the bonnet slats on my BBi) and, although it did work out, it was far from a precision job. You want you to know the drill bits wiggle a lot since they are only held in with a magnet and not really tight, and the flex shaft is multi strand wire (like a speedo cable) that works very unpredictable, specially in reverse as it is wound up in the opposite direction. So the chances of breaking something are high with this drill setup.
     
  8. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    Jon, agreed, exact same issues with the setup shown. The wobbly bit guarantees a damaged plastic plenum. It was a rejected, last ditch effort.

    This works really well for tight spaces, but even then, it was far too big for this application.


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  9. awatkins

    awatkins Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2005
    396
    SFO Peninsula
    Full Name:
    Alan Watkins
    There are a couple issues here. For the unit to be a fire hazard would exceed the transistor’s heat tolerance (i.e. it would self-destruct and either fuse into a short circuit which would simply turn the fan all the way on, or open completely which is the usual failure mode). However, with an inadequate heat sink like the existing one I am pretty sure it would get to plastic-melting, leather-discoloring or passenger-startling temperature. That all depends on the fan control-knob position. IIRC max power dissipation is right before it clicks into the max-speed position.

    Also, with power transistors like this there is always the choice of whether to electrically isolate the heatsink from the transistor case which reduces the chances of the heatsink touching some other circuit with harmful results. The downside is that the isolation reduces the effectiveness of the heatsink somewhat. So in putting it on some new heatsink and mounting it elsewhere you need to account for potential unwanted contact. The case is connected to the wire to the fan which through the fan leads to +12V. My recollection is the fan motor at full speed conducts 12-15 amps so if that touches ground it will at least produce a healthy spark.

    There is space forward of the passenger footwell closing plate (big piece of maybe .060” thick steel.). If I wanted to hide it away I would put it forward of that plate but would also mount a small fan on or near the new heatsink to guarantee air circulation, which unfortunately also requires a +12V wire to run the fan. (My current rig is too big for that so at the moment it is loose on the floor of the passenger footwell. No concours points for me. Someday I will mount it properly perhaps under or behind the passenger seat.)

    Another option would be to mount it, isolated, to a large thick sheet of aluminum which itself is mounted to the forward side of the above steel plate. If the aluminum were thick enough (say, 1/4”) I think the heat would be distributed over its surface enough not to unduly heat the overlaying carpet.

    And BTW regarding your polarity question, yes it matters very much which wire goes to which pin on the transistor so to be safe I recommend taking a clear picture of how it’s currently wired and then being careful to always reproduce that exactly.
     
  10. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    Alan,
    At this point, I am planning to mount the PT on the following heat sinks which will then be mounted back to back (with thermal paste).

    Then, mount them to a plate which will attach to the passenger footwell plate by way of rivnuts. The plate will raise the PT above the carpet and then bend over the top of the passenger’s feet. The PT will be held in a nearly horizontal position in the open area below the plenum.

    Once the heat sinks are in hand, the measurements must be taken to confirm the feasibility of the proposed solution.

    The smaller heat sink holds the PT in a position which will effectively keep it well away from contact with anything flammable.

    It will be interesting to monitor the temps of the heat sink and transistor.


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  11. awatkins

    awatkins Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2005
    396
    SFO Peninsula
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    Alan Watkins
    Looks like a good solution. I’d show you mine, which you would laugh at, but am traveling for the next couple weeks,
     
  12. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    It looks a lot better than a bad fan control!
     
  13. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    SOLUTION:
    These 3 pics show the fabrication.

    The aluminum mount is made from a piece of 4-1/2” x 12” long stock. The bend is at the 3” mark with 1/4” folded over on each side of the horizontal section for strength. The attachment point is slotted to allow the mount to be adjusted vertically. It must clear the top of carpet and remain below the heater box assembly.

    The OEM footwell panel’s upper lip was cut and then folded flat to allow the aluminum mount to fit flush. Three rivnuts were installed to attach the aluminum mount to the footwell panel.
     

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  14. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
  15. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    #15 vincenzo, May 3, 2022
    Last edited: May 3, 2022
    This is with the power transistor mounted along with the dual heat sinks. I’m betting that it will no longer be a point of failure due to heat. If it does fail…. its 5 minutes to get it out of the car for service.

    I can’t imagine how many butchered their air ducts and vents trying to get the old transistor out. Or how many clients paid for their entire dash to be blown apart to get at the old unit.

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  16. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    BTW: this mod was done to SN: 83958
     
  17. EZORED

    EZORED Formula 3
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    Nov 24, 2007
    1,033
    Scottsdale, AZ
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    Dennis
    Good solution, I had this same problem when I bought my first TR back in 2007. My solution was to replace the rivets with a stud and nuts arrangement on a modified heat sink to facilitate easy removal to repair if needed. This is a very clean solution. I always wondered that the original location was a little crazy, as heat is what kills the transistors, and yet when you turn on the heat in the car, you are bathing the transistor in heat. seems counterintuitive?
     
  18. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,731
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    The hottest air coming out of the center air vent is still cooler than the transistor outer case temperature (so it still provides some cooling), but agree that it's just under-designed (as we've had so many failures). One contributing factor IMO is a psychological one where a human will usually set a variable speed control to 3/4 or 7/8 thinking it's being less harmful than selecting full speed, but it's just opposite in this situation (i.e., using 3/4~7/8 speed cooks the transistor most; whereas, using full speed doesn't stress the transistor at all).
     
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  19. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    The heat sink is offset from the vent outlet. The jet of hot air will induce the circulation of cabin air around the heat sink’s fins.

    Any pics or details on your design? How in the world did you get the rivets out?

     
  20. raysur

    raysur Formula Junior
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    May 3, 2008
    614
    So. Cal.
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    Jeff
    To get the rivets out I used a 90 degree driver head with a counter sink hex bit. I did it from underneath and got it out. Worst thing was getting my body under the dash.
     
  21. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    I’m just not that flexible any more!
     

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