Removing the DOT/EPA-US stuff from a EURO TestaRossa | FerrariChat
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Removing the DOT/EPA-US stuff from a EURO TestaRossa

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by teveo, May 8, 2013.

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  1. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #1 teveo, May 8, 2013
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
    Safely picked up my '85 TR yesterday (from CA to Norway), no transport issues/damage. So far so good.

    I would like to "reverse" the EPA-DOT modifications made to my 1985 Euro TR and need to make a list of changes.
    My 85TR Photos

    Hope that some of the experts could chime in with advice on what need be done.

    Main priority is the engine and emission system. Engine should be:
    "F113A Bosch K Jetronic (mechanical gasoline control and electronic emission control) and a compression ratio of 9.3:1"
    http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp206/vanvinkel/85TR/1985_Ferrari_testarossa_24_zps06098d23.jpg

    The smog certificate
    http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp206/vanvinkel/85TR/1985_Ferrari_testarossa_misc_04_zpsfa6d162e.jpg

    Emission info
    http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp206/vanvinkel/85TR/1985_Ferrari_testarossa_misc_09_zps76f8d6c3.jpg

    Dot sticker.
    http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp206/vanvinkel/85TR/1985_Ferrari_testarossa_misc_01_zps25300a66.jpg

    I am familiar with Porsche and K-Jet and know the system quite well, but far from expert.

    Suppose there are other matters, eg headlamps may and seatbelts must be changed, even if they are Klippan belts they have no e1 markings and they do not retract very well either.
    TR differences

    Any advice or link to information very welcome.
     
  2. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    #2 turbo-joe, May 8, 2013
    nice to hear that all was going fine ! :)


    mine is a 87, with KE jetronic and no cats, no electronic smog control, original german version.

    so it would be important to know if the electronic control in your car is original or rebuilt?
    where ( country ) was the first delivery? euro car is not euro car. even that time for example the cars going to switzerland had cats, the german cars not.

    the smog check vehicle inspection report I wonder a little: there is in idle of max. of 1 % CO and at 2500 rpm 1,2 CO. those readings an engine without electronic smog control and also without cats can comply with. only the HC with 120 and 150 you can nearly not reach with an engine without cats.

    in germany we have for cars with cats in idle max. 0,5 % CO and at about 2500 to 3000 rpm max. 0.3 % CO. but in 1985 the rules have been much easier, so you may have much more higher readings.

    good would be to get knowledge what all for the US market had been modified

    the emision control information is a plate not original from F and says nothing what has been modified and what not. may be under the emission exhaust control system number TWC 02s - CC lambda you may find some in the info about this number?

    on this plate there is standing a max CO in idle from 0.35 % and a HC from 34 ppm. on the report there is standing something else. strange ! ! !

    on all the pictures I can not see any lambda sensor. so does it have or not?

    if you register in germany a vehicle again ( does not matter if in germany first time or one more time after registered in an other country ) it is always so that the law from first registration finds application.

    how is it there in norway?
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 Steve Magnusson, May 8, 2013
    The CIS plumbing changes (if still present) would typically be adding a line from the WUR control pressure port, thru a frequency valve, that (eventually) returns to the tank (a clue would be having 2 banjo fittings stacked on a single banjo bolt location). If you can take a photo of the plumbing between the WURs and the fuel distributors, would be glad to cast an eyeball over it (really requires removing the air filter box).

    Are you familiar with the CIS plumbing changes on the euro V8 models to convert them from K-Jet without Lambda to K-Jet with quasi-Lambda that have been posted here before? Your modifications (if still present) would be done using the same architecture.
     
  4. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #4 teveo, May 8, 2013
    Turbo Joe and Steve, thanks for the response.

    I will look into the engine bay and take more photos in the weekend. Norway is not a problem regarding emissions in 1985.

    Based on the smog cert my first thought was that co was very low, the "return to idle" when blipping the throttle is too slow and from my knowledge that indicate lean mixture. The only problem with the tune of engine right now would be transition from idle and too high idle (1050-1100 rpm)

    I will have to check the thermostat(s) as well, engine would only run at 65-70 deg celsius when cruising in 120 kmh in sunny 16 deg celsius weather.

    Steve: I am not familar with Ferrari V8 CIS but will try to read up. I have done a a handful Porsche 911 CIS engine into MFI or "broken 2.7 engine" installations but just one was a lambda/cat engine.
     
  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    #5 turbo-joe, May 9, 2013
    only those 65 to 70 °C is too low. may be the thermostats or also may be the sensor for water temperature? let the engine get warm and then meassure if you have with an infrarot thermometer on the housing of hte thermostat and also on the left and right radiator on the top where the water goes inside.
     
  6. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #6 teveo, May 11, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Ok, I took off the airfilter box today. There seem to be some extra electronics and there is a lambda sond. Sorry for sluggish photos, will take a few better shots from the WUR to the fuel distributors. I did not have time to read up but will "study" the parts and or workshop manual tonight.
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  7. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #7 teveo, May 11, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 Steve Magnusson, May 11, 2013
    Yes, the modification strategy seems to be the same as on the V8 models (the added gizmo with the yellow plastic connector is a frequency valve that the added ECU operates in order to change the control pressure (and therefore, change the A/F ratio by causing the center plunger in the fuel distributor to move when the airflow is held constant) based on the O2 sensor signal input.

    Do you only have one O2 sensor (Lambda Sond)?
     
  9. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #9 teveo, May 11, 2013
    Yes, I only found one o2 sensor. It does not look like the plastic pipes from the WUR go to the tank(s), both seem to go into the distributors, they have another pipe that just connect the two WUR's.

    The o2 sensor can be traced into the relay and likewise the blue box (ecu?) sitting together on the right inner fender (in the pix as well). Did not trace it towards the frequency valve.

    Would it be correct to assume the (extra) control system in short is the added ECU, the relay for the o2 sensor, sensor and the frequency valve plus the associated wiring?
     
  10. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #10 teveo, May 11, 2013
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    From the pix it seems like just the driver side fuel distributor is affected. Maybe that was enough to reach the emission targets?
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  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 Steve Magnusson, May 11, 2013
    Last edited: May 11, 2013
    The modification affects the control pressure -- since you have a line joining the two WUR control pressure ports, the control pressure acting on each fuel distributor is the same -- so even though the FV is mounted to ports of only one fuel distributor, its effect is felt equally by both fuel distributors.

    Not a horrible sin, but not great -- sort of similar to the situation on some TR exhaust systems where the exhaust from only 3 cylinders in a bank are sampled. It does count on the bank without the O2 sensor being adjusted correctly.

    The connection on the side of the fuel distributor (the arrow in about the middle of your pic) is a return port that (eventually) goes back to the tank (i.e., the WUR and the FV are both returning fuel to the tank at that connection). The other connection (the arrow on the right side of your photo), eventually going to the top center port of the fuel distributor, is the control pressure side of things.

    Normal -- this way, the control pressure is exactly the same for both banks (and you only need one FV if you want to change it).

    Yes. You should be able to just remove it all (using a couple of stock, shorter banjo bolts), and be back to the stock euro F113A configuration, but, most likely, it will need to have the manual A/F tweaks checked/reset. If you want to run active precats and/or cats (and not overheat them), the A/F ratio adjustments need to be per spec (lean side). Do you know if your precats and/or cats are intact internally?
     
  12. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #12 teveo, May 12, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks Steve, it looks to be a straightforward job. The shorter banjo bolts may already be there (in each end of the FV).
    Yes, All the cats are in there, am planning to run Euro exhaust, a used stock system without headers is usually around $800-1200 on german/french/italian ebay. I have the LM2 AFR meter with dual wideband setup and should be able to tune both cylinder banks simultanously with it.

    Problem arise with the US headers, very different. Cats are not neccessary until 1989 in Norway, maybe I am better off with testpipes instead or perhaps I run cats and get pipes for the precats.

    Maybe if I can find part #57 and 58 in the tavola and replace the precats. At least I would be able to straighten out my rear valance without precats.
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  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #13 Steve Magnusson, May 12, 2013
    Last edited: May 12, 2013
    One thing that I'd say here is that, if you do run catalytic structure(s) in the exhaust stream (and it might smell a little better if you do), you've got to have some way of detecting overheating at the exit area of the upstream-most catalytic structure in each bank besides the coachwork at the back of the car being on fire ;). Are there any thermocouples mounted in your existing system (and are they connected to something useful that turns "on" some sort of warning light in your dash)?

    I know it's more work, but you might want to do an "inventory" of the condition of the existing precats and cats before deciding just what you need to buy (unless you are sure you are going sans all catalytic structures). Even stock US TR (that are sort of working OK) had a tendency to have the precats go bad/broken inside.

    Yes, the headers are different, but performance-wise, nothing wrong with the US headers vs the euro, and the insulation is an underbonnet plus IMO (even though it might not be absolutely needed in your case)

    You've got even better options here (if the parts are still available) and if you stay with the US headers. Items 57 & 58 come in two different flavors:

    142166 & 142167 are the "shorter" ones that only relace the precat. I was able to buy these without difficulty from a F parts supplier -- but it was a few years ago. Here's a pic of them mounted on my TR (with cats), but I've since sold them on to someone else:
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    128589 & 128590 are the "longer" ones that replace both the precat and the cat at the same time (i.e., they directly connect the header outlet to the silencer input). May be unobtanium (as they were used on few TR), but would make a cleaner installation IMO (if you want to replace both the precats and cats).
     
  14. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    #14 turbo-joe, May 12, 2013
    I would remove all the cats because no need in norway for this modell year as you write.
    so you can let the engine run then with the normal k-jetronic without any electronic stuff.
     
  15. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #15 teveo, May 12, 2013
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    Thanks for the advice, I think my main focus is to get rid of the extra electronics, less to think about when tuning the car and no "non stock" compromises.

    Fixing that bent rear valance is also priority. From an environmental view cats would have been fine, my storage/hobby garage is enclosed in the back of our warehouse. Have to drive 40 meters through the bulding to get to the outer door, its always on a cold engine and its does stink afterwards.

    The testpipes (128589 & 128590 ) would have worked, but had to find used ones. They are $2800-3000 each in USA (rutlands, ricambi and another i found), Eurospares around Euro1000 each. Still too expensive I think.

    Come down to a couple options then buy a euro system, mock up the pieces and see how the adapters can be made or find "long" pipes for the US muffler.

    I know a good metal fabricator, think he will manage to make adapter/tubes for US header to Euro system. Eg, found a system for just Euro 600, this system been for sale a couple months, I rather spend a little more for a cleaner system though.
    Echappement ferrari testarossa

    "GMG Exhaust for an old school Ferrari Testarossa", pity they still need the cats.
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  16. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #16 teveo, Jan 27, 2014
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    Finally found a Euro exhaust in good condition and at a fair price. I will have to make 4 customs pipes since I still have US headers but that should not be a problem. Hope to get the TR on the lift in a couple weeks and bring her back to "non cat Euro spec".
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  17. Melvok

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    #17 Melvok, Jan 27, 2014
    Please ... get yourself something better ! A Tuby for instance ...
     
  18. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #18 teveo, Jan 27, 2014
    I dunno how it is in Holland but it is better to get a license plate *before* you get a Tubi, at least where I live..
     
  19. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #19 teveo, Mar 6, 2014
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    Finally found some time to continue, the left hand bracket has been cut, whereas the right side still is there. I have to fabricate the brackets that bolt to exhaust and also the left side welded part of the bracket.

    The red car photos are from the internet, not very good but hard to find those pix.

    Anyone have an idea about whether the welded part of the exhaust brackets are identical left and right side?
    I may get an idea when I mockup the exhaust but would be nice if someone with a Euro system could verify.
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  20. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #20 teveo, Mar 6, 2014
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    Just a photo of the right side welded bracket, seem to be missing the bolt on bracket that attaches to exhaust but else looks fine.
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  21. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #21 teveo, Mar 7, 2014
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    I put the Testarossa on the lift today it was a tight fit, the fuel system is working fine after the emission stuff is off, its hard to say with straight pipes but it felt more agile.

    Mocked up the euro exhaust and it fits nicely, I will use the old US brackets with custom extensions for the lower main muffler. For the top muffler I will replicate and weld on a similar bracket to the one on the right.

    The old garden swing did the ultimate sacrifice and ended up as Ferrari testpipes, not bad even if it is temporarily.

    Maybe someone have to go down this path a day so for the records the euro system has a 45 mm ID, the US header has a 46 mm ID, both pipes are 50 mm OD. The right hand side seem to need a 27 cm pipe and the left seem to need a 25 cm pipe. I will order the orignal rubber mounts ($18 / each unless you want them in a Ferrari box) and tighten down and re-measure everything before I make the new pipes.

    The pipes euro side need a conical flange, it is easy to make with a handtool or have a shop do it, the US headers need a slip fit, I will need to have the 50 mm pipe expanded and that is also a very common task for exhaust shops.

    Forgot to measure the flanges, but of course 50 mm ID. The euro side need a common 3 bolt (conical) flange and the US side a 2 bolt flat flange.

    Have a couple questions, one regarding the two canisters on the rear inner fenders (one on each side), I do not find them in the parts book for Euro car, are these US emission stuff as well? (See bad photos of dark boxes)

    Second question, would it be common to leave out the heavy metal piece of the bumper and just make spacers to get the distance right?
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  22. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #22 Steve Magnusson, Mar 7, 2014
    They are the charcoal canisters for the (US) fuel evaporation control system. If you remove them, make sure that you provide some other way for air to enter/leave the gas tanks (or they can get crushed as the fuel is used up and/or with temperature changes). E.g., hose 22, valve 24, etc. as shown here:

    http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=2771

    or something equivalent.
     
  23. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #23 teveo, Mar 7, 2014
    Thanks Steve, will check it up and unless they made serious alterations I'll revert to euro version. Seems like they kept valve 24 or similar, its there in one of the photos and for sure enough lines.
    Suppose the boxes could stay but the cleaner the better.
     
  24. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #24 teveo, Mar 7, 2014
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    The euro exhaust need 6 pieces rubber mount, I tried to find the measures by adding rulers to a photo of an original, the stud diameter is know and the dimensions are somewhat close to what I photoshopped. 8 mm stud, 70 mm length, whereas 30 mm is the rubber piece.

    It may not be correct enough for the TR parts exchange list but this piece is almost the same spec, it is also listed as an exhaust part and should take the heat.

    By adding a 1 mm spacer to both sides and it checks in.

    £3.50 excl vat and one get 6 of these for the price of 2 in white box or a half one in a ferrari box.

    Cotton Reel Rubber Mount 42mm x 27mm M8 Studs - Car Builder Solutions - Kit Car Parts, Tools and Accessories

    The company seem to have lots of bits and pieces, I will order these and see if they will do the job.

    And another manufacturer, seem to have the right size just do not list dealer.
    http://www.gmt.gb.com/PDFs/A-B-C-Buffers.pdf
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  25. teveo

    teveo Formula Junior

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    #25 teveo, Mar 9, 2014
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    Getting ready to finish the exhaust conversion, the test pipes will be made with the following pieces, paid $85 from Amazon. I decided to buy aluminized steel parts to make the fabrication a breeze. I may buy SS exhaust pieces and make another set when/if the cheap parts checks in.

    4 x Walker 31880 Exhaust Flange
    4 x Walker 31877 Universal Hardware Flange
    4 x Dynomax 41947 Connector Pipe

    The Dynomax pipe is factory expanded and slip right on to the manifold, muffler side is the same size as the muffler. I could have used a 50 mm ID pipe and cut the flanges on muffler side and used a regular clamp but the installation would have been a little crude and the edge of the inserted muffler pipe would also disturb exhaust gas flow, even if slightly still not desired.

    I did find the rubber mounts with 40 mm width, 8 mm stud, proper length and most important 30 mm rubber length at a local parts store. Expect to pay $5-10 for a good quality one (NOK 58 over here)

    Instead of welding in new left upper mount I decided to make a bracket and fix it to the US exhaust mount which is a very sturdy piece. It is well hidden and I made it flexible to be able to tune position and angels with the test pipes installed. The lower muffler right side mount will be fabricated and extend from the US right side mount.

    Will make a heat shield for each side muffler to keep the rear headlamp connectors, cables etc cool, aluminum sheets with riveted on brackets should be fine. I do not see from the parts manual whether there ever was such an item in place.

    Happy with the setup, the conversion cost me less than $1000 exhaust system and parts included, the US system was fine apart from one of the cat's, the core was somewhat crushed and will come out in pieces. Its a big lump but if someone would be interested in a US exhaust system or even a full setup with the computer et al feel free to contact me, it will never go back on my car! I wish I had measured the rear engine compartment temperature with the US system installed just to see the effect of removing 4 cats from an area less size than a (very) large travel bag.
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