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Removing the oil pan cover

Discussion in '206/246' started by DinoDriver, Apr 4, 2011.

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  1. DinoDriver

    DinoDriver Formula Junior

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    #1 DinoDriver, Apr 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Another one of those Dino projects I thought would be a piece o'cake . . . never happen! I'm trying to remove the oil pan cover - - Item #21 on Tav 2 of the exploded parts manual. The oil drain plug will no longer tighten as it should so I'll take it to a machine shop for a Helicoil or Time-Sert fix. Should be easy from what I can see in Tav 2 . . . undo 14-10mm nuts, remove washers, release gasket, lower pan cover off studs and it's all in hand. On my '74 GTS, not quite. I've got it dropped down about 4" but that's about all it will go. (Photo attached) Looks like there are a few more internal parts not shown on Tav2 (temp sensor?, an upper cover of some kind?) That are interfering with getting it off. Has anyone done this successfully before in place on the car? Appreciate any suggestions if you've been there and done that! Many thanks,

    Bill
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  2. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    #2 Nuvolari, Apr 4, 2011
    Your dipstick tube is interfering with the removal. Same problem as on a 308. If you search in the 308 section there are lots of photo threads of what to do.

    In a nutshell:

    1. Loosen the big nut at the base of the dipstick tube
    2. Remove the tube
    3. There is a little guide insert (looks like a short 4 inch or so tube) in hole vacated by the dipstick. Pull this guide out.
    4. The pan now should lower
     
  3. DinoDriver

    DinoDriver Formula Junior

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    #3 DinoDriver, Apr 4, 2011
    I'll try that in the a.m. I never would have thought of that but it does make sense. Thanks for the quick response
     
  4. daviekj

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    #4 daviekj, Apr 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Bill,

    I remember a similar issue. It foxed me for a while. I think you will need to remove the oil temperature sender. It has a large brass nut head just to the side of where the gear linkage enters the engine block. You can just about get to it from underneath near to the fore engine cross member. From memory the sender is quite long, perhaps a couple of inches. it protrudes into the engine sump and prevents the sump baffle chamber that is part of the sump casting form dropping. I had a better photo of this somewhere, but can't find it at the moment.

    Kevin
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  5. DinoDriver

    DinoDriver Formula Junior

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    #5 DinoDriver, Apr 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks, Kevin. About the time you were typing your message I was under the Dino finishing up the "extraction." You're right, that sensor must come out and, once the pan assembly is dropped down about 4", it's pretty obvious and not difficult to get out. My surprise was it wasn't necessary to take out the dip stick parts on my '74 (#08118). Maybe on earlier models it is. I was also surprised to see what a complex assembly the oil pan is. Lots of baffling and two one-way swinging doors into the chamber where the pick-up is located. Chances of oil starvation on extended high g turns is pretty remote considering there's a total of about 7 quarts of oil in the system and probably 5 of those are always in the sump. Checkout all the pix below. It'll probably be a week to 10 days before I get the new threads pressed into the drain plug area (either HeliCoil or Time-Sert), then I'll let you all know how it goes back in. Thanks very much for your advice. Meanwhile, everyone, don't over-tighten your drain plug!

    Bill
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  6. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 dm_n_stuff, Apr 6, 2011
    Don't forget to use Bellville (I think that's what they are called) washers during the reassembly.

    They are cupped, right?

    D
     
  7. DinoDriver

    DinoDriver Formula Junior

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    #7 DinoDriver, Apr 6, 2011
    Good catch, DM. You're right, except for the spelling. :) I just checked and that's what was on oil pan studs. Here's more than you'll ever need to know about Belleville washers -- some very unique uses dating back many decades.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belleville_washer
     
  8. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 dm_n_stuff, Apr 7, 2011
    I have to dig out my box full of Dino odds and ends from the garage this weekend. I have a couple of other requests for stuff that I think I have in the box. I may have a bag or two of these left. I'll check, as obviously I have no further need for them. I also have the correct nuts for the studs, which you should replace while you're at it. They've probably been on and off the car a few dozen times by now, and it wouldn't hurt to swap them for new too.

    D
     
  9. DinoDriver

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    #9 DinoDriver, Apr 7, 2011
    Dave, thanks for the generous offer of new washers and nuts. Actually, this will be the first time this oil pan has been off the Dino since an engine rebuild in about 2000. That's why the nuts and washers look really good. No need to send new. Btw, the TimeSert kit to do the new thread insert for the 22mm x 1.5 oil drain plug is $412 plus an hour or so of machinist labor, about a $500 job total. The machine shop I'm working with does Mil Spec work. I used them when I was a PM on a B-52 project at Rockwell Collins in Sterling, VA. This is simple work for them: Custom make a stainless steel insert which will be bored and threaded to 12mm x 1.5, press it into the freshly bored old hole, stake it on the inside, insert new NOS 22mm drain plug (available from T. Rutlands). Labor $180, new plug $10, 22mm tap $52. Conclusion: This oil change will be a bit more expensive then the previous 34. ;-)

    Bill
     
  10. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    #10 swift53, Apr 7, 2011
    If you were to send me a dimensional drawing of the part you need to be made on the lathe, I am certain I can save you $$.

    If interested, please pm.

    Regards, Alberto
     
  11. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 dm_n_stuff, Apr 7, 2011
    last helpful hint.

    torque on those nuts is 96 INCH pounds IIRC.

    INCH POUNDS.
     
  12. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    #12 swift53, Apr 7, 2011
    And safety wire...

    Regards, Alberto
     
  13. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

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    #13 jselevan, Apr 7, 2011
    Forget the safety wire. Any type of spring washer, Nyloc, etc. will do the trick. I use a tacky gasket sealer, and run it up and down the stud threads. This acts as a "lock-tight" type of glue on the threads. Nuts won't come loose.

    Nuts are quite small to drill and wire. And with compression of the gasket over time, it is comforting to occasionly tighten the nuts (snug). Can't do it with the wire on.

    Jim S.
     
  14. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    #14 swift53, Apr 8, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
    I was referring to the drain plug...(s)
    I know, I was not very clear :)

    Regards, Alberto
     
  15. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

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    #15 jselevan, Apr 8, 2011
    Sorry - didn't think it made sense (safety wire the 137 sump cover nuts). Should have guessed. My bad.

    Jim S.
     
  16. DinoDriver

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    #16 DinoDriver, Apr 8, 2011
    Thanks for the offer, Alberto. Everything is now at the machine shop and will be ready for pick-up on Monday. I'll re-install Tuesday or Wednesday.

    Dave, I know you're correct on that torque but it seems like so little to get a good seal, especially with Mobile 1 in the crankcase. Maybe I'll put a light coat of RTV gasket seal on the new copper washer. I love it when nothing leaks under my Dino.
     
  17. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    #17 swift53, Apr 8, 2011
    You are welcome Bill. Glad to hear it worked out. Please post photos of the insert, I think we can always learn new things....

    Regards, Alberto
     
  18. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 dm_n_stuff, Apr 8, 2011
    I dunno if I'd use a gasket sealer. If you torque 'em right, and your studs aren't beat up, it should seal nice and tight.

    I used to re-tighten mine at least once a year. It amazed me that they always seemed to need tightening. Asked my mechanic and he said if we replaced all the studs, I probably would not need to tighten them so often.

    D
     
  19. DinoDriver

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    #19 DinoDriver, Apr 8, 2011
    DM, the gasket sealer would be for the large copper washer that goes on the 22mm drain plug. The 14 threaded studs just need that Belleville washer we talked about earlier. The 14 nuts become loose because the new gasket that seals the oil pan cover will compress with time and heat-cycles and require tightening about twice before it "stabilizes" in its permanent position. I use Permatex "Ultra Grey Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker" on that gasket to insure no leaks. Also use it on the cam cover gaskets when doing a valve clearance check. Great stuff!

    Bill
     
  20. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    #20 swift53, Apr 8, 2011
    Just preference, but FWIW, I use Hondabond or Yamabond on the two halves of Alfa gearboxes, as very leaky from birth, no gasket, but with these "bonds", not one drop.
    I truly was amazed.
    They invented Yamabond for their jetskis, notoriously leaky two strokers, as everything would vibrate loose and I can vouch for that.
    This stuff is absolutely amazing, just make sure you buy it on the web, as from either NAME dealers, it costs 100% more.

    Regards, Alberto
     
  21. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    #21 fastradio, Apr 9, 2011
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  22. swift53

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    #22 swift53, Apr 9, 2011
    Really nice David, I like the results. Must be slightly harder on the transaxle plug.
    Here, we just machine a "T" sleeve, Red Loctite, and done deal.
    Timeserts for us are ok in the smaller odd application + not available, and with freight, tools, taxes etc., the cost is prohibitive.
    I have three sets that are 80% unused in the spark plug (desperate measures) and in the 10mm and 6mm sizes.
    Helicoils in that size, I agree, not really a good option as they "will" pull out...

    Great photos, thanks!

    Regards, Alberto
     

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