This post is dedicated to PSk... Renault and Flavio Briatore are cheating by giving team orders in F1. They clearly are not letting Giancarlo Fisichella compete with Alonso. It would only be real racing this year if Flavio Briatore allowed Giancarlo Fisichella to race. Instead they are frowning down upon any of his accomplishments and praising Alonso. Clearly Alonso is the number 1 driver at Renault. Team orders are banned. Clearly Giancarlo Fisichella is under team orders. Renault even so far as to provide him with a faulty car that could not make it through the entire race in Bahrain. People complain that Ferrari does not allow real racing to go on by limiting Rubens. Renault have mastered the art of suppressing a far superior Giancarlo Fisichella. He won the first race. The only reason why he has not won since then is because Flavio and Renault do not want him to win. Renault forced Giancarlo Fisichella to hit Webber in Malaysia so that both him and Weber do not get any points. Renault are being unsportsman like and are not allowing real racing to occur. Even if they do win the championship this year it will be a hollow championship. If only there were real racing. But this is just blatant cheating!!!!
at you Pete ps: MS and Ferrari would never have allowed RB to win that first race ... shame on Renault for not getting it right
Imperial83, who is your dealer? Put down the crack mate, the world aint out to get you.... Well, not yet anyways
While the topic is a bit silly, a degree of favoritism is inevitable. You will always have a better set mechanics, or a better race engineer and each must be assigned to one of the cars. As new parts get developed they may only be availble for one of the cars, this has been seen throughout the years on every single team. That said it is no secret that Alonso is Flavio's boy, he brought him into the team and was tipping him as the "next Schumacher" since day one. Not to take anything away from FA's driving so far, he's been amazing, but if it did come down to a one or the other situation, I really do wonder if Giancarlo would get a fair shot. Much has been said about Ferrari team orders, and while I won't try to defend everything they've done, there is something to be said for their more up front and honest approach to the subject.
Ok Imperial I have to go for that one! that is the dumbest comment I ever heard from you!!! Thank God we know you like to get in people nerves! Giancalo is way more of a veteran than Alonso in the F1, but what has he done in F1 compared to Alonso? little. Giancarllo has a lot more to demonstrate than Alonso at this point, so it will be wise that any team favors their stongest pilot if required. But I know my last statment is not completly fair, because they had very different conditions in their way in F1. I wish there were a competition at the end of the season like there are in rallying, Rally Masters Challenge. One weekend at the end of the F1 season where all pilots compete with older seasons cars (2 or more seasons ago), but on head to head races with the same exact F1 car, that will be exciting to see. Although I do not think there is team orders at Renault, this season we did not had any chance to see it either. IMHO Alonso is simply way faster than Giancarlo at this point in the season. Quite a lot of that possibly because he has been longer in the team, and the car is probably better setup by Alonso at this point. BTW what Alonso is going through is pretty similar to the starts of MS in F1. If MS is what he is now is in big part because he had a manager who made the right decission to drive him to were he is now, MS wouldn't have done it alone. Briatore could be many things, but one thing is certain, he knows where to look for talent and how to make it shine. - Julio.
Totally agree with one difference: Alonso is doing all this at a much younger age, so he'll break all those "youngest driver to ever..." records.
Ok! For all those of you that think I am on crack... please do not take the first post literally. I was only making fun of PSk about how he constantly whinned about the favorotism at Ferrari and how there was no real racing. So now I am complaining. Renault are not alowing GF to race. renault are cheating and their vistories are shallow. They know that GF is a better driver than Alonso. Yet they promote Alonso through team orders and hold back GF. PSk would make the same comments when Ferrari and Michael would win. Now I am just dishin it out to him when Renault are winning.
Its all in good fun ... I do have to say that my respect for the Ferrari F1 team is not as high as it used to be, or as high as I would like ... and the same can be said for McLaren (thanks to an Aussie GP a few years ago when DC gave the win to MH due to some wanky pre-race agreement ... what are they, do they take turns at sucking each other off or something. This is supposed to a be serious racing to win sport, not some gay tagging 'Oh you go first', 'No you', ...). While I fully appreciate that team orders and internal team favouritism makes sense, and heck if I was a Ferrari F1 team member, I would not waste my time working on RB's car either ... you just know it will never be pushed as hard as MS's car and probably trundle home in the points, I'm still pissed about the 2002 Austrian (? ... hope I have the right year and GP) GP where they asked RB to pull over when MS was under NO WC pressure at all. Personally this is how team orders SHOULD work: 1. You start the season as even as possible, but if there are development issues the more experienced and faster in testing should get the best bits. 2. You race ONLY for yourself UNTIL it is mathematically impossible for you to win the WDC and then you help your team mate. You fncken do NOT do this when you have as much chance as your team mate ... how fncken dare Ferrari ask RB to gift the win to MS. How fncken dare MS be such a fncken poof to accept a gifted win. I can tell you most definitely that I would NEVER ever accept a gifted win when my team mate still had a chance to win HIS own WC. Thus I guess I am no longer a true Tifosi ... and I have witnessed many times since where the team boss (Brawn) played the race tactics to suit MS and purposely destroy RB's chance of a descent result ... and this was way after they said they played even stevens. Again RB still had a chance ... but I guess he also never stands up and takes that chance ... but that is another discussion. When McLaren dominated in the early 90's (or late 80's ... can't remember) with AS and AP driving ... it was all on on the track and it was close to the best modern racing we have ever seen. Both drivers had their own balls, they did not need Brawn to castrate their team mate to win. Thus my respect for MS as a person, a real competitor is not has high as I would like. I still fully respect his car control and will forever remember his early years at Ferrari as something fncken awesome to have witnessed, but I'm sad to say that I think winning is more important to the man than how he wins, and that shows up a major (IMO) personality flaw. Pete ps: Now I'm just hoping to be able to see some more of MS's brilliant car control and thus I want Ferrari to improve the F2005, but not too much ... as I want to witness the only thing I respect about the man again. Maybe then I'll forget some of the other tarnishing things ...
I was quite clear that you were joking, but... as we see now thre were some bitter bits behind that joke. I can not disagree with you more. I won't say if GF is a better driver or not than Alonso, mainly because I do not know it. What I know is what they have show us in the time they have been in the F1. And looking to the facts Alonso is the one with the results to demonstrate who is better, until GF can show the same, in my side Alonso is the better driver. If Fisi feels he is the better one and the team is leting him down he has a mouth to speak and tell the world about it. However I don't think this is the case so far. He is a pilot with double the experience in F1 than Alonso, and he had chances that Alonso did not, however his results are simply discreet until now. He is in the top team now and he will have to demonstrate what he can do. Renault might do the same than Ferrari and give team orders later in the game, I won't say they don't favor Alonso, becuase they will probably do, but becuase there are real reasons for it, victories. However Renault will certainly not throw points out the window when they could get 2 cars in the podium, and certainly not now that they can could get distance from the other teams in the constructors Championship. So far, I think Fisi has simply done what everybody expected, nothing sort of extraordinary. What happened in Malasia was mostly luck, he was lucky enough to qualify in dry track while the other top players didn't. The same happened with his other only victory in Monaco with Jordan, he won because the cars in front (an they were quite some) didn't finish, not becuse he was faster. What you can say for sure is that he is more lucky than others - Julio.
Julio, Don't sweat it mate ... the bitterness is directed at me not Renault or GF, etc. Unlike Imperial ... I do not bleed real tifosi blood and have critised MS and Ferrari. This is unacceptable to Imperial, who can only see the sun shining from his team. Pete ps: Read my last reply ... that is where I stand and where this post originates from.
Disagree. Don't think GF is a better driver than Alonso. Usually when you "hold back" a driver you at least have him a close second, or third, or fourth behind the team leader. So how does this explain GF being much further off the pace?? C'mon now. Be realistic. Team orders would have allowed Alonso to win the first race if that was the case.
Guys and girls ... Imperial is JOKING. The only serious post of this thread (other than your replies) is my post starting: Its all in good fun ... Relax ... Pete
1) McLaren can basically go jump in well or go hang themseves for all I care. I do not seen them in F1 once Mercedes decides its time to get back into F1 with a factory effort. I have never had any respect for their management and team. Kimi willmake his way to Ferrari in about 2 years time. 2) As for the 2002 Austrian GP. All I am going to say is that it would have pretty embarassing if Michael would have lost the championship by one point at the end of the season. A point that he so easily could have gained with the help of his team. 3) There is lies the difference between our ideologies. I consider F1 to be a team sport. You consider F1 to be individual racer performance. It is like two banks of the river. They shall never agree and never meet. 4) I hope that Ferrari win every race this year and I hope that we have a Ferrari 1 - 2 at Imola in 3 weeks time!!! I am a die hard tifosi. All I care about is Ferrari winning. I enjoy parade races. I love seeing Michael or Rubens lead from start to finish. I don't really care if it is Michael or Rubens. Do what it takes to win. The reason for winning holds little value to me. 5) Michael Schumacher is the best racer ever to drive a car. He is the most succesful world champion ever and will go down in history as the best driver to step into any race car period. Everyone can chant Senna Senna Senna... Senna died... he never proved himself... Michael stuck around and proved himself. Staying alive is half the battle. End of story. I have a lot of respect for drivers such as Senna and Prost but Michael is the greatest in my mind and pretty much thats all I care about. 6) If anyone has the slightest misconception that Ferrari are dead and burried... I want to point out... Exhibit A: the 2003 season Exhibit B: the 1999 season Exhibit C: Ferrari mounted a come back after two decades of nothing! I will stick around for another two decades if that is what it takes to win another championship. I have done it before!
I think Ferrari would have won MORE if this had never happened, plus they could have played these games later in the season without the unsporting repercussions, and also without fncking RB's lifes effort (after all he was for once going to beat MS fair and square). Anyway we have all discussed this over and over and over and if it was the 2000 series I would have done it too, but not in 2002 after the drought was already over. The team make the car, they do NOT race it ... otherwise it would have 15 steering wheels, etc. F1 is supposed to be the top of the motorsport tree, thus I want to see the best driver win ... The sooner the sport returns to putting the team back in their place the better. If they want to partake in the on track activities ... then they should not have given up their own driving ambitions. Screwing with somebody elses does not make up for their own failings ... Its all about honour ... and I'm not sure that everybody understands how important it is to win the right way. When MS stops racing it will only be memories ... that is when these things may (?) nag at him. Pete
Okay okay - here's the real conspiracy, from BE's housekeepers nephew's girlfriends lover. Ferrari is holding back to allow other teams to look like they're any good. Manwhile Flavio has promised BE a bit of crumpet from his rejects so Flavio gets to look like the front runner while MS whistles his way around the pits waiting for his cue. They need more viewers - that's why there will be 18 races this year. Soon they will go head to head with Nascar 57 weekends a year.
I agree to that in general. I'd probably make rule #2 a tad less restrictive and say halfway point of the season instead. Whether Ross really threw many races against Rubens, I'm not sure. There were some obvious cases, but overall I think Michael was simply faster. I do agree however with you, that Michael's victories and championships could be more glorious if he had allowed his teammate to truly race against him. Senna and Prost together just match Michael's number of championships, but they duked it out against each other (well most of them at least). The odd thing is, I'm 100% certain Michael would have won against Rubens anyway, so why even insist on the #1 status? But then again Ferrari was still nervous and shaken from the previous two decades where they so often lost it by a hair. Team orders are not fair, but as a team manager I would never play it like Williams who risked (and lost) championships because of his unwillingness to concede a #1 spot. However as a fan, I'm grateful for that.
PSk, I must assure you that Michael will leave F1 with no regrets. Michael does not win those championships for himself. He wins them for his family, his fans, but first and foremost for his own team. F1 will always remain a team sport. The team choses the driver to represent their hard work and determination on the track during the race. There is no need to have 15 steering wheels. Each member of the team plays their own little part. I remember after Micahel won the world championship in 2001, he was asked "how large of a part did you play in Ferrari's victory?" He responded saying that there are over 400 people who work directly or indirectly for Scuderia Ferrari. My part was only a 1 out of 400 fraction of the effort. F1 will always be a team sport. The only way to make it true individual performance is to ask one person to build the car from bottom up and race it. F1 will never reward drivers in the long term who think they are winning on just their own merit.
Here are Michael's first words after winning in Japan in 2000! It is on the radio. All he cared about is that he won for the team... http://www.ferraristas.com/downloads/schumacher_words_inmediately_after_his_win_in_Suzuka.mp3 "You are great ross! You are great ross!" "WE DID IT! WE DID IT!" So, yes! I do believe this.
I heard those words on TV, quite familiar with them. And they made sense after all the time they were getting so close yet no cigar. But don't mistake that moment of joy with his personal motivation. I'd be surprised (and disappointed) if he wouldn't be primarily racing for his own glory. Michael has been "educated" in public relations talk and it shows, but don't think for a minute that is representative for his thinking. I hope it is not at least.
Wow, that's the first time I heard that. A very poignant moment. Of all the things that could be said of MS, I think the one of least truth is that he isn't a team player. But I've even seen him get criticised for that on this board. It seems like there's a case of: "you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't" with some of you folks At this stage, I highly, highly doubt that MS is racing for his own glory. I think he races because it's the thing he most loves to do. It's part of who Schumacher is. He will always be involved in it to some degree. MS has made it amply clear (even bluntly so) that glory, reknown and records matter little to him. Let us not confuse the desire to bring triumph to yourself and your team with the desire to feed your own pride. The former I think MS has a very healthy dose of. The latter - well, he has a legion of red-clad Italian tifosi who worship him as god - I don't think he needs, or wants, any more of that! my 2c
