Renaults problems and engine test beds | FerrariChat

Renaults problems and engine test beds

Discussion in 'F1' started by Far Out, Jan 30, 2014.

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  1. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

    Feb 18, 2007
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    Florian
    In the winter testing thread we discussed the problems Renault and especially Red Bull are facing. From media reports and our own theories, Renault teams generally have problems with their batteries and power electronics. The Red Bull additionally seems to have a too tight package, so the electronics and/or batteries may get too hot.

    The question arose if these issues couldn't have been found out "on the dyno" in the factory. First, "dyno" usually refers to the electric machine(s) used as a load for the engine and/or whole vehicle. The whole facility is called "test bed" or "test bench".

    Disclaimer: The following is based on my experience from operating an engine test bed (don't want to post pictures here, just ask via PM if interested) and visiting dozens of such facilities at various vehicle manufacturers or research institutes. I will show examples of devices made by Austrian company AVL which is the #1 test bed manufacturer in the world and supplies, to my knowledge, all the F1 teams. Other than having good connections to AVL, I have no legal or commercial ties.
    If anything is wrong or you know better, correct me!

    An engine test bed looks like this - although of course they're never that clean ;)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    An engine is mounted on a rig and connected to an electric machine ("dyno", the big blue box on the right) by a shaft. Lots of sensors connected, in the image you see in addition an exhaust gas analyzer next to the black hoses and on the wall in the back a fuel measurement system.

    What you don't see: a cover on the engine, a car around the engine, or any hybrid components like in an F1 car. In fact, if electrified drivetrains are tested on an engine test bed, the electric motor may be mounted on the engine, too, and the power electronics may be present.
    At that stage of testing, I have never seen any installation of the electronics like in the real car (ie, proximity to the exhaust etc), they're always mounted on a rack or so. And the power supply is never done with an actual battery, usually for safety reasons, lithium ion and so on. Either the electric motor is connected to the grid via an inverter, or the power electronics are supplied by a battery emulator. That's a control cabinet that emulates the electric behaviour of a battery, this is AVL's solution which F1 teams likely use.

    The test of the power electronics is usually done seperately. They're fed by emulators like the one linked, and as a load, nowadays often electric machine emulators are used. They look similar to the battery emulator, big blue cabinets, and internally they behave like an electric machine. Here's a pic of a complete setup, the power electronics go into the rig on the right.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    The upside is that you don't need the mechanical installation of a real EM with all the safety measures necessary when operating a mechanically moving device.
    It is possible to place the device under test, ie the power electronics, in a climate cabinet instead of the rig in the picture to stress it with any temperature desired. This is where you'd heat it up the the temperatures encountered in real life, and a fair bit beyond. If Renault now has problems with their power electronics, this is the step where they should have noticed.

    The same goes for batteries - hook them up to a power electronics emulator (you guessed it, a big blue box) and off you go. However, battery testing is highly safety critical. Again, the likely F1 solution by AVL is a big container which has the testing devices inside. Here you can see how that looks. Notice the soild construction, the vents etc., no one wants a lithium fire spread around!
    If the batteries are to blame for Renault's debacle, here they should have noticed.

    This was component testing so far. When all comes together, the whole car is placed on a roller test bed, and this is a) the first time everything is in place and has to endure its neighbour components, and b) where I'm not sure if the F1 rules permit such a testing facility. If they do, it looks like the one in the video here (which happens to be the most advanced one in the world, belongs to a vehicle certification authority and is just a few kilometers from where I sit right now. I saw it in person, very impressive!).
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfomHmC-yhI]TÜV Hessen Rollenprüfstand advanced im Technologie- und Umweltzentrum in Pfungstadt - YouTube[/ame]
    You can safely bring the whole car to its limits on such a test bed. Manufacturers often have roller test beds in huge climate chambers to simulate extreme temperatures for the car while it is running (don't ask what such a facility costs!). If F1 has such test beds, at latest here Red Bull should have faced problems!

    As I said, correct me if anything was dead wrong :)
     
  2. ricksb

    ricksb F1 Veteran

    Apr 12, 2005
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    So, your thought is that either they ignored the results they were getting from the roller test bed or they did not perform that stage of testing?

    I'm having a hard time trying to understand how they could have been caught off guard by this magnitude. It could be a Renault issue also, based on what's happening with the other teams. Maybe they changed something in the engine design that triggered a domino effect of failures. I don't know, but surprised to see Newey caught out like this. I'm certain he'll get it together eventually
     
  3. davebuchner

    davebuchner Formula 3

    Jun 1, 2005
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    I for one am not going to lose any sleep over RB having issues with their design. Forza Ferrari!
     
  4. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

    May 12, 2007
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    Interesting danke F.
     
  5. DF1

    DF1 Three Time F1 World Champ

    Many thanks for the superb, informative post. You have a very interesting job! Great stuff :)
     
  6. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

    Feb 18, 2007
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    Florian
    I'm not sure if they have roller test beds in F1. Three possibilities:

    1) F1 has no roller test beds and the Renault components all behaved fine under their individual tests. Then RB made a BIG mistake somewhere during the design phase. Overheating of that magnitude must be noticed during early (!) calculations

    2) They have roller test beds and the RB behaved fine there with the Renault components. Then either the components were different, or RB made a BIG mistake during that test.

    3) Renault components don't work as intended. This should have been noticed when testing the components, and not when the cars are on the track, and Renault made a BIG mistake.


    You're welcome, mates :)
     
  7. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

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    Mercedes seems way ahead of everyone else right now.
     
  8. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    I chose option 1. Formula 1 is only allowed to use a wind tunnel with a 60% model as I understand it, meaning there are no rolling test beds for testing powertrains in a chassis. If this is correct, which I think it is, then all cooling modeling is done based on the data Renault provided Red Bull and either the data was wrong, didn't factor in certain variables, or Red Bull just didn't pay proper attention to the necessary cooling details underestimating their needs.
     
  9. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    If they can keep their wings on.
     
  10. ricksb

    ricksb F1 Veteran

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    By "Mercedes", do you mean the team or the engine? McLaren is doing very well right now (after their day 1 mishap) so I'm certain you mean the Mercedes power unit. I agree 100%.

    Ferrari seems to work well in the Ferrari, but the other teams are having some problems. We'll know more about outright speed once we get to Bahrain.
     
  11. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Fer sure, the power unit.

    Dear old Phil put in 2nd best time so far in the Williams! Merc power is totally dominating both times and total laps covered by all their teams.

    Ferrari seem there or thereabouts.

    Renault seem to be in deep do-do..... Not just the Cans, but anyone with a Renault lump (sorry, 'power unit' ;)) is really, really worried right now.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  12. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Hahaha! True dat.
     
  13. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    Thanks for the insight - very nice of you to share. I've very familiar with testbeds, but of the flying type.

    I find it very interesting that in the testbed, for safety reasons, they locate the batteries remotely from the engine or simulate them, but on the cars themselves, they site these between the driver and the engine... under the fuel tank!! :-o
     
  14. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

    Feb 18, 2007
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    It's not only the batteries, everything has safety measures that go far far beyond what you'd experience in a normal car. You mention the fuel tank - in your car you carry 60+ liters of fuel around, which runs through rubber hoses to the engine.
    At the test bed, the fuel is contained in absurdely expensive protected cabinets, everything is connected with stainless steel pipes, and don't ask what kind of certificates every part has to bring with it...:eek:
     
  15. Sunracer

    Sunracer Formula Junior

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    Pierre Beniston
    Hear hear! made me LOL!
     
  16. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for a great post.

    Another reason that the test restrictions are counterproductive.
     
  17. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Thanks to Florian from me too. How'd your EGT tests turn out?

    I've actually seen some pix of his bed, and suffice to say it's not nearly as 'neat & tidy' as those posted here! ;)

    You're correct on the wind tunnels, but I don't think there's any explicit ban on 'rolling test beds'. Just that they've never been 'necessary' in the past. They have full size shaker beds for example, just not an ability to put it all together..... I can see why the road car guys use 'em, but as Florian noted, they're absurdly expensive, even in the F1 world. Shouldn't, generally at least, be necessary.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  18. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    John!
    I knew about the shaker beds, still not sure on rolling test beds. Checking.
     
  19. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    #19 Far Out, Jan 31, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sufficient enough for a conference paper, will have to do some work for my dissertation :eek:

    Careful there! :mad: :D We're moving to a new location in April, out of our cramped containers into a real brick and mortar place, it will look considerably nicer then!

    I haven't seen a shaker that allows operation of the car and can't imagine how such a facility would work. Below is a picture of the TÜV chassis dynamometer from the video above (this machinery is below ground, the car stands on the 4 rolling drums), you can't shake that with a high frequency :eek:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  20. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    :eek: ;)

    Someone posted this vid of the Cans 7 post shaker a while back. I guess it's doing suspension testing. (Stay with it till after the nose test, gets pretty good!)

    Cheers,
    Ian
    [ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_SPflUyT1rQ[/ame]
     
  21. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    Yup, but the car just stands on the shaker. It doesn't run!
     
  22. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Ahh, OK, gotcha!.....

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  23. vinuneuro

    vinuneuro F1 Rookie

    May 6, 2007
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    Really shows how little travel there is in the suspension.
     
  24. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    So true!

    F1 must be one of the few activities where testing is frowned upon.

    I never understood the reason behind it.
     
  25. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    One word; Cost.

    The days of throwing the thing in a truck & showing up for a few hours are *long* gone..... Just firing the things up takes, innumerable computers and what, 20 guys?

    Cheers,
    Ian
     

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