Rene Arnoux: What happened?

Jack-the-lad · Feb 25, 2008

A member of another of my favorite forums posted a query there about the circumstances surrounding Arnoux's firing by the Scuderia at the beginning of the 1985 F1 season. A moderator gave a very coy response, and admonished posters to be "very careful" about what they say.

So, does anybody here have any perspective on this? What was the reason he was dropped from the team, and why would discussing it be such a delicate matter?

Thanks.

Jack

senna21 · Feb 25, 2008

I have no idea! But I'd like to know as well. It was Arnoux's drive in 100+ deg Texas heat from the back of the grid to second place at the Dallas GP in 84 that made me want to race formula cars and most importantly become a tifosi.

Whisky · Feb 25, 2008

I like Rene a lot.... one of the best pics I ever took is of Rene in the Ferrari, still on my website.

Nembo1777 · Feb 25, 2008

When I interviewed mauro Forghieri in September I asked him the question since I had always been very curious about it...but he graciously skirted the issue.

My 2 cents is that it had to do with reprehensible activities of some sort...

The only time I spoke to Arnoux was about 3 seconds in the pits of the 333SP he drove at Le Mans 1995...let me amend that...drove in practice, since it was out after a few laps, so no chance to broach the subject...
I thinl we will get at least a hint some years down the road.

ferraridude615 · Feb 25, 2008

ferraridude615 said: ↑

A Frenchman on Italy's team isn't exactly a match made in heaven.
Click to expand...

+1, there must be some other reasons but the people that know must not be allowed to speak up.

Nembo1777 · Feb 25, 2008

Excusez moi?!

Prost, Pironi, Tambay, all three could have been world champions with just a few more points: review those seasons carefully.

ferraridude615 · Feb 25, 2008

Nembo1777 said: ↑

Excusez moi?!

Prost, Pironi, Tambay, all three could have been world champions with just a few more points: review those seasons carefully.
Click to expand...

Indeed, but I've always seen the Italians not having the best of relations with the French.

Anthony_Ferrari · Feb 26, 2008

wikipedia is no help:

After a less successful second season at Ferrari, during which his new teammate Michele Alboreto progressively took the initiative from him, Arnoux was suddenly dismissed after the first Grand Prix of the 1985 championship, the Brazilian Grand Prix.
Click to expand...

Someone must know what happened?

jtremlett · Feb 26, 2008

This is what Nigel Roebuck (of Autosport and now Motorsport) said about Arnoux when asked the question:

Autosport said:

Dear Nigel
As a kid I loved to watch Rene Arnoux race, especially in 1982 and 1983. It always seemed to me he was a real racer, never giving up. What are your thoughts on him as a race driver, and what was the reason for his sudden dismissal at Ferrari in early 1985?
Arjan Velthoven, Arnhem, Netherlands

Dear Arjan,

A very strange little guy, Rene Arnoux, and one I always found difficult to fathom, frankly.

In many ways, I always had sympathy for him, because he was from a poor background, with a thick 'country' accent, and there were those in the French racing community who ridiculed him for it. When he first came into F1, with Tico Martini's little team in 1978, he was painfully shy and timid, but anyone who had seen drive an F2 car at a place like Rouen Les Essarts had no doubts about his ability and courage.

When Renault decided to run a second F1 car, in 1979, their first choice to partner Jean-Pierre Jabouille was Didier Pironi, but Ken Tyrrell declined to release Pironi from his contract, and so Arnoux got the drive. He was married to a charming girl called Nelly at the time, and he once told me that they both burst into tears upon learning that the drive was his. At last he was into the big time, and had done it on talent alone.

Now we really saw what a racer Rene was - notably at Dijon, in which he fought a battle in the late laps with Gilles Villeneuve which has gone into motor racing legend. Early in 1980 he won his first Grand Prix, at Interlagos, and a month later came his second, at Kyalami.

In 1981, though, his career began to unravel, for by now Alain Prost had joined the team, and from the outset obviously had the upper hand. In these circumstances, Rene's form rather evaporated, and by the end of the year Renault was ready to drop him - indeed, it was Alain who persuaded the management to keep him on.

For 1982 there was no designated team leader - which Rene took as a slight, feeling that he had been effectively demoted. A more realistic fellow might have counted himself fortunate not to be the firm number two.

However, having suffered a great loss of confidence in '81, Arnoux recovered himself in '82. His driving may have lacked the sheer quality of Prost's, but at many races he matched him for pace.

If there were no team leader at Renault, from the outset Gerard Larrousse (then competitions boss at the Regie) made it clear that, as the season took shape, he with the best shot at the World Championship would be given preference. If the Renaults were running 1-2, in other words, the driver in the best points position should win.

And so in July we came to Paul Ricard. Prost had 19 points, Arnoux 4. They qualified first and second, and no one could realistically challenge them. Before the race Rene agreed that Alain should win.

Arnoux took the lead at the start, but Prost didn't worry. An hour and 33 minutes later he was still in front - and now Prost worried a lot. On the rostrum Alain made no scene - this was not his way - but inwardly he was livid and afterwards made his feelings clear to the management.

"If I had been in Arnoux's position," Alain said, "I would not have agreed to Larrousse's suggestion. This was a race, after all, and I thought the idea unrealistic. If Rene had refused, I would have perfectly understood. But the fact is that he did agree, and on that basis we went into the race. He gave his word, and he broke it. That was why I was angry."

France, broadly, took Arnoux's side. Prost was depicted as the villain of the piece, the spoiled star who whinged because he hadn't been allowed to win. Fair and square, the awkward and unsophisticated working class boy from Grenoble had beaten the prima donna, right?

"I couldn't believe the bad publicity I got," said Prost, "and I told Larrousse I would leave Renault if Arnoux stayed. A simple decision. In Formula 1 it's psychologically important to feel at home in a team; feel that everyone is on the same side. Otherwise, it's not possible to drive well and I know I didn't drive anywhere near my best in 1982. You must trust your team mate. I remember what happened with Villeneuve, after Pironi duped him at Imola; I learned a lesson from that.

"The problems with Arnoux were not confined to that day at Ricard," Alain continued. "After I'd won the first two races in '82, he was very upset; stopped working, had no interest in the debriefings, refused to test and so on. During qualifying at Monaco, for example, he twice deliberately blocked me when I was on a quick lap - and we were in the same team!

"After Ricard he went on to the French press about how nothing had gone right for him; that he had fought all this time; that he was always unlucky - the underdog. A martyr, you see. And the French adore martyrs. Some of the journalists wrote that Arnoux had done the right thing, but they simply didn't know the facts, and I was annoyed that my team didn't back me up afterwards.

"There was absolutely no reason for Rene to behave like a martyr, because he had good cars, with everything necessary to win races. He always tried very hard to get all the people and the press on his side - but you have to be honest. If I don't want to speak to someone, I don't. But if I do, then I will speak the truth..."

Prost I liked immensely from the day he came into F1, and at first, Arnoux, too, was easy indeed to get along with. His first Grand Prix season, with the underfinanced Martini team was disastrous, and you felt nothing but sympathy for this shy little fellow who had starred in F2, and often wistfully spoke of returning to it. When he got the big break - the Renault drive - most had rejoiced for him.

In time, though, he changed. And when he moved to Ferrari for 1983, he took on what he saw as the essential accoutrements of the superstar. There were three more wins that year, which brought him close to the title, but in 1984 he was usually outclassed by new team mate Michele Alboreto, and early in 1985 was dropped.

I do know why he was kicked out of Ferrari, but explaining it is very difficult, for a variety of reasons, some of which are delicate. At the first Grand Prix of 1985, in Rio, he had an unplanned pit stop, but afterwards came through from 19th to fourth. That was to be his last race for Ferrari.

The year before, teamed with Alboreto, he was invariably outpaced, and did not respond well to that. For much of the season his driving was erratic, and there were suggestions that his physical condition was not all that it might have been.

A few days after the Brazilian race in '85, Arnoux had a meeting with Enzo Ferrari, and it not go well - in fact, Rene stormed out. Soon aftewards, it was announced that he had asked to be released from the contract, following problems with leg muscles which had required surgery the previous winter.

This 'official explanation' was plainly economic with the truth, let's say, and fooled no one. At the next race, in Portugal, Arnoux was replaced by Stefan Johansson. Later, of course, now restored to health and fitness, Rene returned to F1 with a spell at Ligier. He was never, though, to win another Grand Prix.

These days he seems a happy man, and regularly shows up at the Goodwood Festival of Speed, driving the Renaults in which he made his name. How do I remember his time in F1? Well, I recall days when his presence in a race went completely unnoticed - but also those, when he was really on his game, that were breathtaking, as at Montreal in 1983, when he simply drove away from everyone.

If Dijon '79 stands out in the memory, so also does the one and only race in Dallas, in 1984. Again, this was not a race which Arnoux won, but he put in a quite extraordinary drive. The conditions that day were terrible, with temperatures of well over 100 degrees, and a track surface which broke up appallingly - 13 of the 26 starters finished up in the wall.

Rene, after qualifying third, had to start at the back when his car failed to fire up for the formation lap. This was a tight 'street' track, yet he passed six cars on the opening lap, and eventually finished second to Keke Rosberg, having made not a single mistake on a day which caught out such as Prost, Lauda and Alboreto. A fantastic drive by one who, on his day, was as quick as there was
Click to expand...

fluque · Feb 26, 2008

jtremlett said: ↑

This is what Nigel Roebuck (of Autosport and now Motorsport) said about Arnoux when asked the question:
Click to expand...

Excellent article. I wonder what really happened for him to be dismissed from Ferrari

snj5 · Feb 26, 2008

"I do know why he was kicked out of Ferrari, but explaining it is very difficult, for a variety of reasons, some of which are delicate"

Whatever the delicacies were, I guess they surfaced in the meeting with Ferrari; is certainly like Ferrari not to tolerate a driver who would walk out on him.

I often watch the clip of Arnoux and Villenuve - my goodness, at that moment he was truly one of the best two in the world, and that is how I remember him.

Napolis · Feb 26, 2008

Rene is a freind and a great driver. He runs a very sucessfull business producing watch movements that are used by famous watch makers.

His battle with Senna will live forever.

It was fantastic having him track test P 4/5.

Anthony_Ferrari · Feb 26, 2008

Nigel Roebuck said:

I do know why he was kicked out of Ferrari, but explaining it is very difficult, for a variety of reasons, some of which are delicate
Click to expand...

Even more intriguing!

Gilles27 · Feb 26, 2008

Napolis said: ↑

His battle with Senna will live forever.
Click to expand...

You mean Gilles?

As good a time as any to post some pictures! Check out the monster rear wings.

Detroit '84, Ferrari Garage
Austria '83
Detroit '84
Hockenheim '83, Post-race pit-in
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Napolis · Feb 26, 2008

Hi

Yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzCqY8Wg5So

Best

WilyB · Feb 26, 2008

In a recent blog "Bords de pistes", Lionel Froissart, a respected French automobile journalist, appears to know the real reason, but will clearly not talk about it, although he says that, contrary to many rumors, René was NOT fired because of a hypothetical relationship with a Ferrari family female.

Far Out · Feb 26, 2008

Very intriguing story! Didn't know about it, but very interesting that no one who knows the reason talks about it....

WilyB said: ↑

René was NOT fired because of a hypothetical relationship with a Ferrari family female.
Click to expand...

...maybe it was a relationship with a Ferrari family male?

Nembo1777 · Feb 26, 2008

"he took on what he saw as the essential accoutrements of the superstar"

Could the answer be in there...as in use of certain substances....?

Gilles27 · Feb 26, 2008

Nembo1777 said: ↑

"he took on what he saw as the essential accoutrements of the superstar"

Could the answer be in there...as in use of certain substances....?
Click to expand...

Eh, back then it was probably more likely to be cars, women, toys, etc. And tons of blow---KIDDING!

RP · Feb 26, 2008

WilyB said: ↑

In a recent blog "Bords de pistes", Lionel Froissart, a respected French automobile journalist, appears to know the real reason, but will clearly not talk about it, although he says that, contrary to many rumors, René was NOT fired because of a hypothetical relationship with a Ferrari family female.
Click to expand...

There is no question of Rene's desire for women.

Senna1994 · Feb 26, 2008

It was a lot of fun watching him qualify those Renaults back in 1982.

Anthony_Ferrari · Feb 27, 2008

According to http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr406.html:

The big news in the days after the Brazilian Grand Prix was that Rene Arnoux had been fired by Ferrari as a result of problems with his physical condition. The team hired Stefan Johansson to replace him.
Click to expand...

There are some theories put forward here http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-66604.html and here http://forums.autosport.com/printthread.php?threadid=48736 but like everything else they seem to be unsubstantiated rumours. Basically they seem to think it was either drugs, women, or both. However they are the reasons that anyone would guess at if they had nothing else to go on. I think that unless Mr Arnoux or someone from the Ferrari hierarchy spill the beans we will never know - and nobody seems to have said anything in the last 20+ years so why would they now?

A true and amusing story about Rene at the 1981 Belgian Grand Prix. It is from Grand Prix International.:

ARNOUX IN THE SLAMMER

Where was Rene Arnoux during the race? Not in the Renault pits, regretting not having qualified, but languishing in nearby Belgian gaol.
The previous evening, an unhappy Arnoux had left the circuit without any prospects for the following day. Rain had meant that he hadnt qualified. A long queue of traffic waited at the exit gate, but Arnoux was in no mood to wait. He pulled past a number of cars, and slotted into a gap further up the line.
The car behind flashed his lights. The fellow behind has recognised me, thought Rene. No sir. The flashing light was in anger, and the driver promptly jumped out of his car and jumped on Renes Renault 5 bonnet.
Get off, shouted Rene, but the guy didnt move. So Rene set off with the man still clinging to the windscreen wipers. At the exit to the circuit, Rene stopped. What do you want? I told you to get off. No reaction.
If this was a joke, Rene was ready to go along with it, and was going to get his own back. He drove back to the hotel at about 40 mph, the man still clinging to the windscreen wipers.
At least it proves that our wipers are strong, said the ever-practical Renault PR lady, Marie-Claude Beaumont, salvaging something positive from a rather embarrassing situation.
Once back at the hotel, a further two or three miles on, Rene got out, and his passenger disappeared without even thanking the Grand Prix driver for the lift. He phoned the police instead.
Seeing the police arrive at the hotel, Alain Prost advised his teammate to go and hide, theyre looking for you. Rene disappeared into the kitchens.
Which of you is Rene Arnoux? asked the man in the uniform. You?
Oh no, Im Jacques Laffite, replied Jacques in a silly voice. Jacques wasnt so happy a moment later when Prost said go on Rene, dont be stupid, theyve got you.
But within minutes Rene Arnoux was found and driven off to spend the night in a free hotel nearby. He was let out of gaol on Sunday evening.
It was just as well he didnt qualify, although its possible that the police would have allowed him out of prison for the race, and then driven him back again afterwards, as happened to Ronnie Peterson a few years ago.
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RussianM3_dude · Feb 27, 2008

If no one who knows anything would talk... I suspect "personal reasons" relating to either A) Enzo Ferrari himself or B) R.A. and not team politics.

I suspect it's A) due to the fact that no one wants to disclose reasons semingly not wanting to upset Ferrari, I mean who would care about upsetting Arnoux except a few friends?

Senna3xWC · Feb 27, 2008

Let this be a lesson for those of you that think Massa has an ironclad 3-year contract...

Jack-the-lad · Feb 27, 2008

Jack-the-lad said: ↑

A member of another of my favorite forums posted a query there about the circumstances surrounding Arnoux's firing by the Scuderia at the beginning of the 1985 F1 season. A moderator gave a very coy response, and admonished posters to be "very careful" about what they say.

So, does anybody here have any perspective on this? What was the reason he was dropped from the team, and why would discussing it be such a delicate matter?

Thanks.

Jack
Click to expand...

I guess the subject was just too scary for my mates over at Atlas F1

http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99692#newpost Thread locked.

Jack

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