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Replace Porsche 991.1 C4S with a Ferrari 328 GTS?

Discussion in '308/328' started by SLC Tortfeasor, Jun 19, 2020.

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Should I replace the 911 with a 328?

Poll closed Jul 3, 2020.
  1. Yes!

    10 vote(s)
    45.5%
  2. No!

    12 vote(s)
    54.5%
  1. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    5,463
    TX//Mexico/UK
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    Mike 996
    Daily driving a 328 is, IMO, more a "comfort" issue than anything else. My 328 was a daily driver for years in Maryland, going to the hardware store, safeway, restaurants in Annapolis etc on a regular basis. Carrying several 8ft 2x4's in a 328 GTS in the home depot parking lot will certainly garner several looks! The car was (is) totally reliable. The neat thing about it was every time we went to an Italian restaurant in Annapolis with valet parking, they didn't charge us for parking and allowed me to park right in front of the front door so the car could be seen by everybody entering, leaving, or sitting in the outdoor eating patio! :)
     
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  2. mexicruiser

    mexicruiser Karting

    Aug 28, 2012
    68
    The 328 is a better investment as it will gain value as it ages, the 911 is at this point still devaluating. 328 production numbers are much lower so It is more collectible, BUT other than value and being much prettier and exotic, it will not replace the late model porsche, an old classic car requieres more maintenance, care and driving attention. I sold my MRoadster to be able to keep my 308, the M was a jump-in-and-drive-it car, lots of fun, the 308 is art but it always has things to fix and bad a/c (its 40ºC here today), I do not regret my choice, but I have to admit I miss my MRoadster (and my 19 yo son does too).
     
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  3. SLC Tortfeasor

    Feb 8, 2007
    26
    Unfortunately, not much. My post there was relegated to the "Other Marques" discussion category, which led to not many people reading it. One guy warned that oil changes on old Ferraris cost $3,000 - $5,000, which can't possibly be right. Another guy said the 328 doesn't feel that much different to drive than a 308. That's important to me because I tried a 308 one time and didn't really love the way it drove. I was hoping the 328 would feel noticeably more modern to drive.
     
  4. SLC Tortfeasor

    Feb 8, 2007
    26
    Yep, this all makes sense to me. I'm sadly leaning toward the conclusion that I should probably stick with my 911, at least for the time being. Given where I am in life, the easier, more practical aspects of the 911 should probably take precedence for now. I'll probably drive one and see if I change my mind though.

    Thank you!
     
  5. 2cam

    2cam Formula Junior

    Aug 28, 2014
    567
    Austin, Texas
    Full Name:
    MikeS
    OK, so it seems that you would LIKE to have a 328, but don't really want to miss out on the usability of your 911 and the chance to take your kids along with you. So, how about a compromise? If the car isn't going to be used as a daily driver, how about a 3.2 Mondial? Same engine/trans as the 328 AND it has two back seats for the kiddos. It still won't be as fast or as usable on a daily basis as your 911, but they're fun cars. You can pick up an exceptional one for the price of an average 328. It isn't a 328, but you still get the vintage Fcar experience with all of the sounds, smells, and feel that you would hope for AND you can take the kids. Just a thought...

    2cam
     
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  6. FrannyB

    FrannyB Formula Junior

    May 20, 2014
    289
    Arvada, CO
    Definitely drive a couple or more if you can. A not-so-sorted car can be just horrible, but a well kept example can be a completely different story.

    Good luck with your quest!

    p.s. oh, and an oil change in a 3X8 is super easy and cost as much as the oil, filter, a crush washer and 45-60 min of your time ;). I bet the poster was thinking of the belt change. $3-5K isn't that far off for a good shop to perform. A zillion posts, but interval is ~5yrs or so.
     
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  7. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
    962
    California SF area
    Full Name:
    Paul
    I would just add that if the urge persists and you feel you still really want one in the future you should know that you cannot make a true assessment of the 308 or 328 experience (they are both pretty close to the same) with a 20 minute drive in one. It takes a bit of time to acclimate to it. The ergonomics are not awful, they're just different and once you get used to it they are okay but after you crawl out of a 308 and then hop into virtually any other car it's gonna feel like it's really easy to drive in comparison. The 308 takes a bit of effort. But the payback is there.
     
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  8. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,426
    FRANCE
    That's a tricky one!
    Which 308 did you drive? Carbed? 2 valve injected? QV?
    Which version is also important: GTB or GTS?

    1. The way 308s and 328s drive is generally comparable between models: but do only compare the same versions: GTSs with other GTSs, and GTBs with other GTBs; never compare a GTB and a GTS, as the GTB is a better driver's car, stiffer and sharper; the difference is indeed perceptible; I know, I have both, separated by five weeks on the production chain.

    2. There is a difference, not that noticeable but nevertheless perceptible, between:
    - on one hand, all 308s and the first half of the 328 production, which have the same suspension;
    - on the other hand the second half of the 328 production, the so-called "88 1/2 and M.Y 89", which have a different suspension.

    3. Was the car you drove a well sorted car on new suspension bushings, or on the old ones...because 35 years old suspension bushings (and rubber) can make a HUGE difference in the driving feeling?

    A late model (= "88 1/2 or 89") 328 GTB on "new" suspension bushings will be a COMPLETLY different proposition than an early carbed 308 GTS on period bushings...the earlier, carbed 308 are , generally speaking, more "raw" than the late 328s...

    Again, find someone who has a well sorted-one and is ready to let you drive it...

    Rgds
     
  9. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
    6,153
    308/328 is not really a viable daily driver, especially with a family .Great cars though.

    How about a 612 Scaglietti? N/a V12 199MPH /0-62 4.0 . great value now and maybe almost bottomed out. Or the earlier 456?
     
  10. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 12, 2005
    12,216
    Atlanta
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    Tom Spiro
    I have a 997, so its close to a 991 and I had a 328 for 16 years. Completely different cars and experiences. Here is what you need to know:

    • Ferrari will not be as reliable as the 991 - period. you may go to start it having just driven it 100 miles and it will not start.
    • A/c and creature comforts are not comparable. prepare to be warm and uncomfortable in the summer at all times.
    • rigidity - its not even close, it will flex all over the place ( gts ) but the ride is better softer.
    • maintenance is a very routine matter ... so you need to find and keep a good mechanic or dealer.
    • the driving is much more involved. - this is not a relaxing car in any traffic ... but super rewarding on open roads.
    • its loud ... all the time. not always perfect Ferrari exhaust ... its just loud.
    • you will get attention all the time. even when you don't want it...
    • pot holes, odd ramps, speed humps, steep angle driveways ... will present totally new challenges. there is no fast maneuvering in a 328 at slow speed.
    • steering at parking lot speed is horrible. the whole rack seems like it will twist out of the fixtures.... but it does not.....
    • Parts... some are easy and cheap, some are simply not available any more and when you do find them they are $$$$$$$ so there is no pelican parts or Suncoast... everything is pretty expensive...
    • insurance is cheaper.... go figure.
    • the Ferrari is way more fun and pride of ownership. the FCA members vs. PCA ... FCA every day, they are much more fun and "real" in my experience.
    • power ... its only 270 HP... really more like 240 ish... so its not a screamer and you don't see them on the track anymore. when you do ... they lean ALOT... to the point its scary... handling at 6-7/10th is great anymore than that... and it can be a hand full. They will do 130-140MPH with enough room.. .and are stable... but its not instant acceleration. you can do felony speeds... just takes more time. and the noise is like an old DFV F-1 car at anything over 6K RPM...
    • gear shifts... 2nd is cranky all the time, until oil is up to 150F or more... shift 1st 3rd. plenty of Torque... huge flywheel effect so revs are slow compared to the Porsche but not by much. clutch is good ... easy , but can get tiresome in heavy traffic.
    • its not an every day car. you could do office commute back and forth, but you don't want to be in the car all day in normal traffic... its low people don't see you and again heat, clutch etc... it begins to wear on you.
    • oh - yea they leak ... even the GTB's leak ... in heavy rain.. its ok when you are moving but at a stand still ...expect water from the top of the window and if in the rain long enough from under the windshield ... and through the instrument binniacle.
    • windows are slow ... always - and the glass acts like a terrarium so it just gets hot on even the coldest sunny days. UV tint does help.
    I voted that you should to it. 328's are great cars, and they are true Ferrari's ..... and are a joy ( Usually) but they are not the same as Porsche... the engineering is old, workmanship can be sloppy ... and they are maintenance sensitive cars, so buy the best you can with lots of history. STAY away from any car with no mtns. History - don't believe anyone who says its not important.... you want to know you have a well cared for car. in my opinion mileage does not matter vs. condition and prior mtns history. Belts, suspension and valves... need to have been done with in last 5 years... $10-$12K.... they all leak oil.. question is how much and from where?

    but when you find a good one, and you go for a drive its super fun and rewarding. happy driving!

    Tom
     
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  11. pizzadude

    pizzadude Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2001
    1,217
    Indianapolis, IN
    Tom
    Great post but 10-12k every 5 years? For a 308/328 thats seems like almost double from what I’ve had and heard.
     
  12. Crowndog

    Crowndog F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 16, 2011
    6,997
    Fairfield,Pa
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    Robert
    It absolutely is. 3-4K is much closer with even a half hearted attempt at shopping parts at a good price. I also have issues with a lot of the posters statements.
     
  13. davem

    davem F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2002
    6,012
    Stepford, Connecticut
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    dave m
    Like 2Cam said earlier, consider a Mondial 3.2 coupe or even a T. No leaks, no cowl shake, room for the kids, and less money than a 328. Same drivetrain.
    Fwiw I had a Mondial Qv which is the 308 equivalent. My 3.2 is way more put together and refined.......though that could be just the luck of the draw between 2 unique cars....

    Have taken mine on 1,000 mile trip no issues.
    Lastly, I'd rather drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow...... especially listening to a Ferrari engine in back of me. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    10,053
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    Nothing from Porsche is every going to compare to a Ferrari. Why worry about the kids? They can buy their own cars and make their own memories. And you still can bring your kids with you in a Ferrari, one at a time.
     
  15. pizzadude

    pizzadude Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2001
    1,217
    Indianapolis, IN
    The $10,000-$12,000 service number is what scares a lot of potential Ferrari owners away.
    355 or Testarossa sure but not for 308/328.
    Also I my car shifts 1-2 like butter even when cold.
     
  16. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    5,463
    TX//Mexico/UK
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    Mike 996
    Had more trouble with my new model year 2000 Porsche 911 in the 6 years I owned it than I have had with my 328 in 12! Engine was replaced twice by Porsche under warranty, transmission was replaced by me since it failed two months out of warranty. Nothing has failed on the 328. Had the Porsche not been under warranty re the engines, it would have cost me more to fix than the 328 cost to buy!
     
  17. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,426
    FRANCE
    Engine replaced twice, Mike? What did you do to them?:D

    Rgds
     
  18. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    Mitchell Le
    One guess: IMS bearing broke and killed it.
     
  19. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
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    Dec 12, 2005
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    That's everything... I think belts with tensioners etc... about $5-7K depending. but do Valves, and if you have to timing gears etc... it gets up there. suspension is about $6K every 35-50K miles... that's stretching it. Then if you try to keep the AC going figure $1500 a year on recharge and or patches... maybe a new compressor... ( recommend Sanden vs. York ....) if you go the R134 route its a constant refilling ... on an annual basis. if you can find R12 that is great but $$$$
     
  20. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
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    Tom Spiro
    I assure you my numbers are accurate using a high quality Ferrari factory trained tech, who serviced these care when they were new. can you find it cheaper...yes but that clearly means ignoring the most critical service items. do you have to do them all at the same time - no, but the cost will build up. when you add up the Mtns over the years - a well maintained car will have at least 80% of its original price in Mtns done if not more. That is without any major incidents... or issues.

    308's - overheating will be a $3-$5K solution over time. Recore or new Radiator, larger pump ( impeller ) does wonders... 328;s are far better engineered and built, but don't have the raw beauty of a 308.
     
  21. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
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    Dec 12, 2005
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    355 service is really steep. they are great cars, but once something goes wrong... its a very expensive fix and electrics are getting harder and harder to replace. My 328's shift was really very good and only balked in 2nd gear a bit in winter months. it would usually just get sucked into 2nd gear. I did have some times hard to engage with 1st gear in traffic requiring clutch in and out again and it would go in fine. usually when it was really hot out. 85F or higher.

    you can do a lot of the mtns yourself. If I had more confidence I would have done the timing belts on my own - its not hard per se, but you need to be exact. doing a clutch is about the hardest thing ... I would never attempt on my own. but for peace of mind you want to know the service has been done and done right.... it makes the experience much more enjoyable. my 308 was way more expensive over time than my 328. but both were $3-6K a year depending...
     
  22. Brian A

    Brian A Formula 3

    Dec 21, 2012
    2,205
    SanFrancisco BayArea
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    1983 US 308 GTS QV
    As a counterpoint to these costs, most of it is labor with a premium for solid Ferrari technical experience.

    I just replaced the timing belts again myself. The belts are $35 each. You need two so total cost to do the job DIY was $70. The tensioner bearings are $200 a pair for the exalted Hill Engineering PT308 ones. I changed them last time and they only had 10k miles on them this time so I reused them (there is a thread on how long bearings last) (short answer: a long time). I completely agree about how labor intensive it is. Probably one full day. Yeah, you have to recover and recharge the a/c refrigerant which is a major annoyance.

    Gapping valves takes a lot of time and lots of waiting for new shims if you don’t have a shoe box full of spare ones. A new shim is $15 if you use Volvo shims which are absolutely identical to factory ones. Rutlands, Ferr Parts, etc sell Volvo shims. The factory shims are astronomical in price. I’ve only done my valve shims once so I was really slow. Someone with practice could do it much more quickly.

    I think the $1,500/year is unreasonably high for a/c maintenance. Aside from the asinine requirement that the compressor be removed to change timing belts, it’s a nice little system. I upgraded my blower fan this year to the Spal 30000463 so had my evaporator out. New a/c refrigerant is less than $150 (a 308 takes 1 kg) (2.2 lbs). A new York R210R a/c compressor is $190. Chasing a/c leaks is time consuming, but most of it is just pressurizing the system with N2 and checking pressures overnight (and lots of soap on joints and hoses if there is a leak). All the joints are O-ring type (i.e. no compression fittings), so can handle a bit of vibration and stay nice and tight over time.
     
  23. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
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    Mike 996
    In both cases they were replaced due to defective rear main seal components. First engine began leaking at around 3000 miles, Porsche replaced the seal. Began leaking again a few thousand miles later. They replaced the engine. Same thing occurred at around 15k miles. They replaced the engine. No further such problems in the remaining 60 k miles I put on the car. Transmission synchros needed replacement at 52k miles. Car was out of warranty at 50 so that repair was on me...

    Ignoring those issues, I was generally happy with the car. I told people (and still do) that it was a very 'competent and capable' car but I never really bonded with it so I had no hesitation in selling it. However, if you asked me whether I would prefer driving across the US on I-40 in my 328 which I have done a couple of times, or that 911, I'd choose the 911 every time! ;)
     
  24. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,426
    FRANCE
    Regarding the engine, it must be a defective design; regarding the transmission synchros, well, I'm not an engineer, but I find this rather suprising.
    And as for the rest, not surprised either; apart for the 917, which, for me, is the ultimate race car, never felt attracted to any Porsche; but I do agree with the old saying that Germans build cars with the head, Italians with their heart.
    As for driving across the U.S, I do agree also: I've done about 550 miles in one day in my 328 GTB, twelve years ago, when I brought her home from the sunny sides of South of France to the (supposedly) cold and cloudy environment of the North-East french-german border, and that was enough...

    Rgds
     
  25. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    5,463
    TX//Mexico/UK
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    Mike 996
    Yeah, definitely! I did the cross-USA twice, each in three consecutive driving days - 900+ miles each day, first time in '08 two days after I bought the car, and again in '18. Both trips were in the summer. The 328 was bulletproof but lack of cruise control, decent AC, and the noise (stock mufflers) made me mighty happy to get out of it at the end of the day! :)
     

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