Replacing 308/328 Timing(Cam Belt) Drive Bearings

Congratulations, glad you found the source of the noise.

How the heck did you get that cover off so quick (ie. drain water, move water pipes, crank damper, cover, oil sump, pick up tube.....)? Must be the practice

 

Verell,

Just an observation the four tensioner bearings I replaced all weeped a little grease. I was told that they are packed full and this was normal. I just wiped them off a couple of times and it stopped. I would put new belts on for sure as they say not to retention them after they have been tensioned once.

Good Luck

 

You must be feeling a sense of relief right about now.

That first drive around the block, followed by a check that reveals no more problems will make the beer even sweeter..........

Lucky you don't have to pass the job card on to accounts for writing up into a customer invoice though!! I reckon you wouldn't have made your mechanics bonus on this one!!

Just from curiosity, can you even hazard a guess as to how many hours you've spent on this whole job......

It helps to quote these stories when my customers complain that it took 2 hours longer than expected on a 40 hour job!

 

Just give them the old rule of thumb for working on exotic cars:
"Everything takes longer & costs more..."

2 hours is within 5%. I'd never quibble with a mechanic if the bill was within 15% of estimate unless it was a 'not to exceed' quote. Anyone who does just doesn't understand the nature of auto repair. 25% or 30% is a different story, would want an explanation as to why estimate was so far off.

I agree, there's going to be a bit of beer consumed after it makes it around the block a few times! Not too much tho, John has a 2hr drive to get it back home, & his wife will be following him. Of course, since I'm home, I"ll probably fill up the whirlpool & relax with a good bottle of wine after he's out of sight. Hmm, maybe I should make it champagne...(LOL). H

We could figure the total exact hours, but the first time around, once we knew we had to pull the engine, we chose to do a lot of general cleanup/restoration totally unrelated to changing the timing bearings. Extras were:
media blast & powdercoated: Cam belt covers, dipstick tube, water pump pulley, throttle body & intake plenum.
Thoroughly degreasing & cleaning the engine.
Replaced shift shaft seals & bushing.
Rebuilt weeping water pump
Replace plenum gaskets with durable1's improved flow ones.

We also ran into some wrong parts that had to be re-shipped, parts we hadn't thought to order. All these cost us calendar time.

Here's how I recollect/estimate it went(John, feel free to revise if your memory is better):

Original Estimated time:
4-5days (assuming no major problems along the way):
-1 day to drain fluids & remove everything covering the cam belts,
-1.5 days to remove timing cover, disassemble it, clean timing drive parts, & install new bearings & seals.
-1.5 days to reinstall rebuilt timing cover, replace belts & reinstall everything covering the belts.
-1 day contingency.
(Basicly a 2 weekend project, with a possibility of a 3rd weekend).

My best memory of actual time(w/o extras):

-1 day to drain fluids & remove everything covering the cam belts,
-2 days attempting to remove timing cover, mostly fighting with stuck studs that ended up broken, trying to figure out how to drill out broken studs w/engine in car, & finally accept that we were going to have to pull the engine.
-2.5 days to disconnect everything between the engine & rest of car, pull the engine & mount it on the engine stand. (may have been 3 days).
-2.5 days to separate sump/tranny/diff from engine to access the studs, this included about a day in futile attempts to remove the broken studs by pipe wrench (got 1 this way) heating, welding nuts on the end, etc. Another day modifying the radial arm drill press so the head would reach the timing cover w/engine on the stand. About 1/2 day to mill out the broken studs, drill & helicoil the holes.
-2 days to reinstall timing cover, bolt the sump/tranny/diff to engine, replace cam o-rings & seals, install belts & re-adj cam timing, & reinstall everything covering the belts.
-2 days to reinstall the engine,hook everything up again & test run engine.
-----------------------------------
TOTAL: 12 days ! ~3x original estimate.

 

times how many people? That's a lot of man hours.

FWIW, as part of all major jobs, I usually spend time to do extra cleaning and painting at no extra charge. i like it to look like the money was well spent. i am sure the other pros on here are the same.

Brian

 

Pretty much 2 people continuously on the mainline work that I accounted for.
There were times when only one person could do anything useful of course, such as removing/reinstalling the cam belt covers & stuff mounted to them. Hard to squeeze a 2nd person into the passenger side wheel well, esp since neither John or I are 'small' people

Also, this is the 1st time John had ever worked on the belt end of his 308, or pulled the cam covers, so I was doing a lot of coaching/training. Also, neither of us had pulled a 308 engine before.

Oh,yes, we spent 1/2 day building some really rugged sawhorses to rest the engine on while we reinstalled the spacer & flywheel. Didn't count that.

We had a 3rd person for the engine in/out days, and a 3rd person did a lot of the media blasting for the powder coating. Had a few kibitzers drop in & out who always were helpful.

Sure has been a lot of hours, longest continuous project I've ever done. Next closest was refinishing my 1st XK150 Jag & rebuliding the engine while back in college- took all summer outside of class/homework time.

We've been on it every weekend since mid-Aug. Only time off for me was labor day weekend, a weekend for a wedding, & 1 or 2 days with other family committments. John was only off 1 or 2 weekend days!
Luckily we have somewhat understanding wives.
altho they're showing signs of strain. We better get this done before Thanksgiving or we may be having to look for new female companions(LOL)!

 

Understatement of the year. My wife would have my hide if I spend that much time and not do something with her,

 

Ha..If I could calculate how much time I have spent cleaning and painting parts for free..I could probbably retire!

 

I was quoted a minimum of $8000 by a respectable Ferrari garage just to take the engine out and do the timing drive bearings. At the local hourly rate (Switzerland) and the cost of spares, they must have been reckoning on around 100 hours work. However, even while quoting they were saying things like "we need to replace the plastic toothed pulleys with metal ones" (4x$400) and that's without the inevitable "well now we've got the engine out we may as well....." So I know the final bill would have given me a heart attack.

Well done guys. It'll sound sweet.

 

I suspect John's est. of 250hr total time was low. He spent a lot of time on parts he took home during the week. Also, we worked some long (9:00 AM till 7:00 PM days with short lunch breaks).

Oh, yes, what John isn't counting is the ~4hrs/day he spent commuting from Portland,ME to Groton,MA! He's gotta love that car!

My estimate was 196 hours (12 days x 2people x 8hrs/day) on the mainline project. In rough ballpark as John's higher est. of 175Hr (70% of 250hrs).

Any way you count them, it's been a big project!

 

Thats whats the matter with flat rate time in a shop, the books make no allowance for cleaning parts and putting it back together clean, just pure R&R. I was absolutely shocked to hear some years ago, that Dodge & Chrysler dealers would change out a blown head gasket by only lifting the head a small amount with everything else attached, and slip out the old and slip in the new, no wasting time to clean anything up.
I've seen brand new long block engines installed in cars without cleaning anything, rusty filthy rocker covers, oil pans, all of it, until when the job was done you wouldnt even know there was a new motor under all the filth and rusty parts. But I suppose as long as people just want the job done and arent willing to pay for the work done properly, and as long as some mechanics are willing to work in a mess like that, thets how it goes.
Thats what I loved about working on aircraft, just staright time and there never was anything such as a hurry up job, it was done right, no questions asked. In fact cleaning is always a required part of the job so there is no argument. But the labor rate is 1/2 to 1/3 what cars shops get too. I havnt heard of any aircraft shops getting $75 hour. Shop I worked at charged $25 hour. 250 hours of labor at $75 to $100 hour would handicap a lot of people.

 

basically speaking, after your baby is back on the road running sweet, you will be a pro in my book! The ticking sound will go away, the metal debris is most likely the cause. I could be right on the cam seal problem, once the engine is running and if the leak stops, the cocked seal is almost always the problem.

 

I am lucky to know both of these two guys Verell and John ,and they are two special people ,who will go out of the way to help any one ,,there are far to few people like these two guys around ,As a doit yourself guy my hat is off to you guys ,GOOD JOB !!!
Verell hosted a cook out at his house (and that is when johns car broke)back in aug. this is a picture of a few of the cars .
DAVID

 

I tried the tip forward method, but I had some difficulty with it, perhaps as it was the first time. I use a bridle and turnbuckles to R&R. As I lower it in, I slide the rear header in place, and level it out by turning the individual turnbuckles in the right direction. I have to deal with the front header bolt up, but that is the worst of it This '85 went in pretty easy even with the alternator on qnd the Electromotive on the rear firewall.
I use o-rings to hold the spacers to the guide pins for easy line up.
HTH.
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Hey, while we're at it, David's a decent guy also. Was thinking of him appreciatively last night as I opened a bottle of the nice Sangovese he generously brought to the (in?)famous BBQ.

My wife got on my case about opening it when she came home tho. It's a big wine & needs a couple of more years to fully develop and fully mellow the tannin. Sure went well with curried chicken tho!

BTW David, I've still got the insulated wine tote you left at the BBQ.

What model lift do you have, & how high are the posts?

 

The lift is 9ft. 9in. tall it is made in texas and I don,t know the make ,I went out to see how tall it is and cain't find the make ,it is 10,000 lb lift sold buy Americas pride co . 3000grand instaled and it works great.
thanks for the kind words ,and good luck in finishing johns car and the wine!!!
David

 

I thought we should break a bottle of champagne across the bow before she sets out. But John said no. Guess he doesn't like champagne, so I suggested breaking a bottle of Miller High Life - the champagne of beers(Heheh)...

Funny, he hasn't responded

 

Don't break it across the bow...then he'll have the car there another 3 weekends doing bodywork!

Birdman

 

Oh, ya think that's why he said NO?